Real Books Arrive

billkath · #1 02-09-2010, 05:38 PM

My real Real Books-the three hard copy Hal Leonard ones arrived today. Imagine my horror when I saw that all the "minor"s were notated with a minus sign (-) instead of what I love-the "m".

Just wondered- How do you all feel about that (-) notation to read in a dark, dingy room on the fly? Anyone else find that it's easy to miss a tiny dash, especially at a dist?

And-Who here is as anal as me, and would bother to go through the whole lot of them with a fine nib pen and overwrite every - with an m?
Spent the whole day at it, and I've now got wrioters cramp!!!

mr. beaumont · #2 02-09-2010, 06:18 PM

actually, i greatly prefer the minus and delta in charts.

i once knew a cat that wrote charts with capital "M's" for major and lower case "m's" for minor. So, Dm7 G7 CM7.

we had it out a few times.

Sailor · #3 02-09-2010, 08:00 PM

Ha ha!! Maybe we'll standardize this one day!! ( I kinda like Big M's and little m's)

Sailor

BMaag · #4 02-09-2010, 08:37 PM

I always found it interesting that no one could agree on a standard chord nomenclature. I had a music theory teacher in high school who would notate diminished chords with "d," so D diminished 7th would be Dd7. I argued about this with her almost everyday.

Anyway, for the record I prefer the minus for minor and the delta for major. I see this to be the most clear distinction between the two. Just my two cents.

pierre richard · #5 02-09-2010, 08:39 PM

yea I don't know when the standardized system will get here...

I always use the "-" for minor with diminished...like Dm7-5.....in my own charts....not Dm7b5...

And use the "delta" for major....C delta = C maj 7th...C delta 9 = C maj 9th...etc...

And the old "small o" for diminished and diminished 7th...

In all my years I have seen them all and have learned to deal with them...in time all of us get used to the "standardization"...

time on the instrument..pierre

billkath · #6 02-09-2010, 09:10 PM

I wonder is it a continent v's continent thing? Over here in Ireland, it seems to be the other way-people not liking the delta for the major and minus sign for minor. All the people living in America seem to like the opposite. I'd use the - and + signs instead of the b's and #'s todominants and minors myself, but I'm happy with either. The minus sign for a minor tho-that kills my old eyes!!

JohnW400 · #7 02-09-2010, 09:29 PM

Back in College we had to use the Brandt Reoemer system. When I see a capital M for major 7th I give the writer a little grief and ask him if he was too lazy to write out the 'aj' as well

Even with a system there are plenty of ambiguous designations

fep · #8 02-09-2010, 10:25 PM

I just use whatever it is that Sibelius changes it too. Is that lazy?

Space Pickle · #9 02-09-2010, 11:34 PM

I like the circle-7.

Mike J. · #10 02-10-2010, 02:31 AM

I for myself find the (-) a lot easier to read than the (m), but that is only personal preference. Enjoy your book.

randalljazz · #11 02-10-2010, 03:38 AM

speaking as one who used to white-out over every symbol not to my liking---we need to be comfortable will all of 'em.

as for the dark, dingy room...generally, sight-reading on the gig is not wise. learn the tunes in the 'shed. charts are just a reminder...

randalljazz · #12 02-10-2010, 03:55 AM

derek · #13 02-10-2010, 09:20 AM

Count me in on the I prefer the - and delta over M and m. I also prefer the circle with the slash over m7b5 for half diminished chords. But as Randall points, out, we need to be familiar with all of them.

voelker · #14 02-10-2010, 10:27 AM

I’m all for simplicity, (-) and (m) are both cool with me, but not (M). I don't want to waste time distinguishing between upper and lower case. If it’s not minor it's assumed major. A simple delta to add the maj7 is all you need. (o) and slashed (o) for diminished and half diminished. Trying to build off the minor symbols (m7b5, -7b5, m7-5, -7-5) could get messy. The only time I want to see a chord symbol that long is on a very specific 7alt chord.

JohnW400 · #15 02-10-2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fep

I just use whatever it is that Sibelius changes it too. Is that lazy?

SIb uses ma and mi as well as triangles, minuses and widgets. What it hasn't figured out is and easy way to do Polychords.

It's just I like to know what chord they want and CM7 leaves room for error. Cma7 does not

billkath · #16 02-10-2010, 02:28 PM

I like maj for major, m for minor, b for flat/ diminished, # for sharp / augmented notes, 0 for diminished chords. For half diminished, I like m7b5,m7-5 or the 0 with a line through it. Strokes for folks, isn't it?

mr. beaumont · #17 02-10-2010, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pierre richard

I always use the "-" for minor with diminished...like Dm7-5.....in my own charts....not Dm7b5...

wow, this really is different strokes stuff, because actually, that one bothers me even more than the "M's"!

i guess my thinking is flat and sharp have an actual musical symbol that's already standard? why make something else up?

and for half diminished chords, i like the 'ol circle with the slash thru it.

but in the end, two rules apply: when in doubt, ask "how's it functioning?" and if it's still hazy "ask the leader."

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #18 02-10-2010, 04:12 PM

Where's Δ on my keyboard? Let me try something ... ∇ ... darn!

TommyD · #19 02-16-2010, 03:03 PM

Who the hell cares! If you're learning a tune and you play a major where a minor is supposed to be you'll know in a split second that it's wrong. And guess what? It won't matter - unless you plan to have your first look at the sheet music on the gig!
And chords in tunes aren't just willy-nilly, after all. There IS a pattern and a sensible sequence to chord structures.
I think the OP wasted a lot of good practice time overwriting the book's symbols, and did himself out of a chance to broaden his reading abilities.
But Hey! To each his own, as the song goes.

billkath · #20 02-16-2010, 05:07 PM

Don't get me wrong, Tommy-I can read it just fine, and nearly as fast as I can read what I call Standard notation (Not standard at all, really-just the sort of notation we normally use this side of the pond). As an analogy-it's like me reading "color" or "program" . I know whoever wrote it means "Colour" or "Programme". My main problem with the "-" notation in the Hal Leonard version of the Real Books is the typeface they use. It's, I suppose, meant to look handwritten. Unfortunately, if there's 4 chords in a bar, and they include things like "e-7b5" the actual "-" sign is so small as to be, to all intents and purposes, invisible. Even with me overwriting it with a lower case "m" it's still tiny, but my brain, seeing that squiggle, know it must mean a minor.

cosmic gumbo · #21 02-16-2010, 05:15 PM

The font they use for chords in the Real Book is much larger than any you would find on a big band or pit orchestra chart. Sounds like it's time for reading glasses.

billkath · #22 02-16-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

The font they use for chords in the Real Book is much larger than any you would find on a big band or pit orchestra chart. Sounds like it's time for reading glasses.

Not the charts given to me by MD's. A conductors score-sure. Anyway-I always rewrite it the way I want to see it after bandcall, so it's right "for me" on the night. It's not eyesight. It's just a preference. Like I prefer turkey roasted instead of deep-fried.

cosmic gumbo · #23 02-16-2010, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billkath

Not the charts given to me by MD's. A conductors score-sure. Anyway-I always rewrite it the way I want to see it after bandcall, so it's right "for me" on the night. It's not eyesight. It's just a preference. Like I prefer turkey roasted instead of deep-fried.

The fact that you didn't know what Real Book chord notation looked like, was a clue that you probably have limited experience with charts. It reaches a stage where it's not practical to rewrite every chart you play. IMO

billkath · #24 02-16-2010, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

The fact that you didn't know what Real Book chord notation looked like, was a clue that you have limited experience with charts.

Nope. The versions of Real Books that I had/have were notated with "m", not "-". apart from one version of Volume 1.

billkath · #25 02-16-2010, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

The fact that you didn't know what Real Book chord notation looked like, was a clue that you probably have limited experience with charts. It reaches a stage where it's not practical to rewrite every chart you play. IMO

I don't need to rewrite every chart i play, simply nearly all the charts I play are written on this side of the pond by people that notate with an "m" instead of a "-".

mr. beaumont · #26 02-16-2010, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyD

And guess what? It won't matter - unless you plan to have your first look at the sheet music on the gig!
.

ah, but there are times that happens!

cosmic gumbo · #27 02-16-2010, 06:24 PM

I find the Real Book to be the easiest charts I ever read, but everyone has their own preferences.

billkath · #28 02-16-2010, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I find the Real Book to be the easiest charts I ever read, but everyone has their own preferences.

Exactly. It's strokes for folks. What I'm thinking is-just reading between the lines of the replies here-it seems more common in America, that kind of notation, rather than Britain and Ireland.

cosmic gumbo · #29 02-16-2010, 07:08 PM

Yes, the land of crotchets and quavers.

TommyD · #30 02-16-2010, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

ah, but there are times that happens!

True story: Noted jazz pianist Derek Smith, who is also an elegant and accomplished accompanist, tells the story of being called by NBC to show up tomorrow morning at 6 a.m. for an 8 o'clock call to accompany Luciano Pavarotti on NBC's morning TV show. Derek Smith thought it would be nice to get a line on what L.P. was going to sing, so as soon as he arrived at the studio he asked, but got no satisfactory answer. Nobody knew. As time went on he kept trying but to no avail. When Pavarotti showed up he was immediately surrounded by aids, makeup people and studio people, and Smith couldn't get near him. He started to sweat. What the hell was Pavarotti going to sing? Suppose it's some aria I've never played before? I ought to have at least a little time to look it over! As 8 o'clock approached, Smith got really nervous and was sure he was going to blow it.
Finally with about two minutes to spare somebody walked over and handed him some music. "Here's the key that Mr Pavarotti will be singing in".
Smith looked at the sheet music. It was, "We Wish You A Merry Christmas"!
Derek Smith swears it's true.