how do i do this?

elijahlucian · #1 02-07-2010, 11:37 PM

hello so im totally new to jazz/swing guitar. i want to learn how to do rhythm guitar to songs like 'billie holiday - easy living" and the ink spots 'dont want to set the world on fire' and 'maybe'

i see the chord charts but i cant figure out where to strum. im familiar with triplets and swing but its just the chord voicings im having trouble with.

any advice on this? where do i start? i feel overwhelmed!

-Elijah
Elijah Lucian - Artist, Songwriter, Producer, Ideas man

Lambosoa · #2 02-08-2010, 04:55 AM

Hi,

I'd say try to learn by ear on some recording of the tunes you mention.

voelker · #3 02-08-2010, 05:11 AM

your question is a little ambiguous. are you having trouble strumming the right rhythm or fingering the voicings? are you looking at specific voicing diagrams for each chord or are you seeing the chord name and haveing trouble finding a voicings that flow.

If its rhythm then you just need to listen to more jazz.

If your talking about voicings that are hard to strum with a pick because they skip strings, then you can either (1)learn to mute skipped strings "very well" or (2)put the pick down and be much more acurate with five fingers. I'd recomend putting the pick down, but that's just me.

If its finding and fingering voicings that are close to each other, then you should go back to basics and make sure you completely understand triads. major, minor, diminished, augmented. all three inversions all sets of three strings.

hope this helps.

Bill C · #4 02-08-2010, 07:58 AM

I've not used this book but from a quick look on the web site it addresses the style you'll need to play on those kind of tunes ...

Basic Jazz Rhythm Guitar: Comping in the Freddie Green Style DVD/Chart Set-by Corey Christiansen| Mel Bay Publications, Inc.=

FatJeff · #5 02-08-2010, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill C

I've not used this book but from a quick look on the web site it addresses the style you'll need to play on those kind of tunes ...

Basic Jazz Rhythm Guitar: Comping in the Freddie Green Style DVD/Chart Set-by Corey Christiansen| Mel Bay Publications, Inc.=

I have "In the Pocket" by Corey Christiansen, and it's a very good DVD. He's a killer player and a good instructor. The DVD is well done.

Another thing to look into is the following book (which I also have, and can recommend):

Amazon.com: Swing and Big Band Guitar: Four-To-The Bar Comping in the Style of Freddie Green (0073999951479): JOHNSON: Books

If you really want to "get it" as far as swing rhythm goes, then you need to listen to a lot of it. Best bets: Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Buddy Rich.

elijahlucian · #6 02-08-2010, 10:43 AM

hey guys a little background about this/me

I've been trying to learn it by ear but i cant seem to pick out the chords well. i know music theory but i maybe i just need to learn more jazz chords. i can learn almost all other popular music by ear but this era is taking a toll on me haha

I use my fingers and nothing else i use them to strum and pick. i have never used a pick because i don't like the sound that a pick gives.

thanks for the book links ill pick those up. the thing is i dont really want to learn the modern jazz .i want to learn the classic jazz like the aforementioned songs.

Lambosoa · #7 02-08-2010, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elijahlucian

I've been trying to learn it by ear but i cant seem to pick out the chords well.

Just don't give up, it's part of the ear-training. It's a really essential skill to get to a decent level in jazz.

GodinFan · #8 02-08-2010, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elijahlucian

I use my fingers and nothing else i use them to strum and pick. i have never used a pick because i don't like the sound that a pick gives.

I can't think of a swing era rhythm guitarist that didn't use a pick. Good luck.

elijahlucian · #9 02-08-2010, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodinFan

I can't think of a swing era rhythm guitarist that didn't use a pick. Good luck.

right... so voelker says don't use a pick and you say you cant do it without a pick... seems like one of those "unsolvable arguments" lets keep that out of this, thanks. remember im talking about strictly rhythm gutiar, i have no desire to be a lead player.

thanks for all the tips guys, ill keep at it, and ill get those books.

voelker · #10 02-09-2010, 02:02 AM

godinfan didn't say you can't do it without a pick. he said,

"I can't think of a swing era rhythm guitarist that didn't use a pick."

And I do think godinfan and I can compromise. My first post contained a few stabs at an ambiguous question. I was assuming you were dependant on a pick, some voicings can sound muddy if you’re just chugging through with a pick. In that case it's good to take the time to use your fingers and really listen to different combinations of notes in a certain voicing. Some of those notes you might want to include at different points in the bar, like the b9 and #5.

What did you mean by “i can’t figure out where to strum”? Did you mean when to strum in time, how to strum certain voicings, which voicing to choose? Later on you said “maybe I need to learn more jazz chords”

Now, I don't know how long you've played Elijah, but I used both fingerstyle and pick for 13 years. I always hated dropping picks, searching my pocket for picks, forgetting/losing picks, barrowing picks that were too thin or too heavy, sweaty hands trying to slip the pick between my fingers and back to my fingers when switching styles, and I hated thinking about muting strings. Two years ago I finally decided my fingers where fast and accurate enough to get off the pick; including my downward strumming with the nail side of my fingers. But who knows if I would be able to do this if I hadn't used a pick first? Would my hand know the rhythm i was shooting for? If you've never used a pick and chugging through the chords is all you’re worried about, then you might want to give it a shot. It's a more uniform way to learn the rhythm and leaves you more brain power to think about the chords. Using a pick will help you internalize rhythms faster so you can eventually just let them out of your fingers.

FatJeff · #11 02-09-2010, 08:31 AM

Part of the sound of swing-era rhythm guitar is that "chuck-a-chuck" percussiveness that comes from the big-muscle motion of the arm (not the fingers). I find that sound easiest to get by doing the same thing they did - playing with a pick.

That's not to say that you can't do it without a pick - but I'm thinking that you would have to use a lot of extraneous motion, and it would be hell on your nails. You're just not going to get the same sound by gently plucking with your fingers.

I did 1-year stint in a Mariachi band and it absolutely trashed my nails for playing classical. I ended up using an "alaska pick" for that. aLaska Pik - Finger & Thumbnail Pick for Stringed Instruments

When I play in a big band setting, I absolutely use a heavy gauge flatpick.

randalljazz · #12 02-09-2010, 01:14 PM

the state of alaska disavows any connection whatsoever with this product.

Sailor · #13 02-09-2010, 08:05 PM

I'm a classical/nylon player myself so I feel your pain. I've played all my jazz with fingers/nails on nylon. Now I'm in the same dilemma...the music I LOVE is old swing and you can't get that chunk-chunk on nylon with fingers, so I bought an artcore and a PICK!! Takes some getting used to but I think the guys are right....this is how this music is played. I still play classical and bossa on nylon....even some CM's this way...but for old-timey jazz I'm switching to a pick and learning the right way after a lifetime of protest!!

Good Luck, Sailor

voelker · #14 02-10-2010, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elijahlucian

right... so voelker says don't use a pick and you say you cant do it without a pick... seems like one of those "unsolvable arguments" lets keep that out of this, thanks. remember im talking about strictly rhythm gutiar, i have no desire to be a lead player.

It is unsolvable because every song and situation is different. But i didn't mean don't use a pick. i meant put the pick down while experimenting with voicings. If you wanna play upbeat swing and aren't worried about playing lines with your chords, then its going to be alot easier to keep that train chugging along with a pick. But it's not like there weren't any slow songs written back then. So you should definitely be able to play with both. I guess if i played with a big band situation i'd use a pick more often, but I play in a duo with an upright most of the time, in which case i'm responsible for chords and melody.

Anyway, don't shun Mr. pick from the start. at least find out what he has to offer. Put him down when your READY, and go back to visit him once in a while when your not getting the sound you like.

I don't even know if we answered your question.

"im familiar with triplets and swing but its just the chord voicings im having trouble with."

you seemed focused on voicings, and we've been ranting about getting that chugging sound with a pick. we can help more if you elaborate on your voicing problems.

Gramps · #15 02-10-2010, 11:23 AM

1. "i cant figure out where to strum."
2. "im familiar with triplets and swing but its just the chord voicings im having trouble with."

These are 2 different issues.
1. Where do you strum? There's no one answer but you can start with struming on the quarter notes (In Set the World on Fire you will want to put emphisis on the 2 and 4). Each song can be different but 4 to the bar normally works.
2. Do you have a couple of good voicings for major (maj7 and/or 6th) Minor7, dominant 7th (7th or 9), diminished and half diminished (-7b5)? If not you will want to learn these types of chords with the root on the E sting and A stings first. Those will likely be your bread and butter, go to chords for a while.

If you can be more specific with your questions you'll get better answers.

elijahlucian · #16 02-10-2010, 11:47 AM

hey guys. sorry i've been a pain in the rear. i just had my friend over and he showed me a couple things. basically i need to figure out the voicings for the chords, thats the main problem here. i know the rhythm, but i was feeling confused about where to pick and strum but that was based on the chords i saw. i just need to learn more about chord voicing and stuff like F/A and diminished chords. seems like noob stuff. thanks for all the help ill be posting something soon.

p.s. im sorry about the ambiguous title. i HATE when people do that and i didnt realize that i posted that kind of title until you mentioned it.!

Reg · #17 02-10-2010, 04:22 PM

Comping for standards such as Easy Living, is pretty standard and can be done with use of a pick or with out. You can accent each note easier with fingers and generally the tone is a little warmer, I tend to use the pick when the volumes a little loud. I actually always hold the pick between my 1st and 2nd fingers so that when I need it, there's no drop in time or feel. I play gigs all the time and never have any problems. For Easy living the feel is quarter notes, long, short, long, short etc... It's a blue feeling swing, at least Billie's, the pop versions are a little blaw... It's a call and answer type of melody and uses triplets so make sure;1) your lead note works with melody, 2) accent the down beat of measures 1 and 5, or even 1,3,5,7, and usually play beats 3 and 4 of bar 8 as a half note. This will help the feel and make the tune groove. Easy Living's form is AABA. the B section has different rhythms in melody, so make simple changes to your "A" section feel, if you can, or don't and it will still work fine. I'm not sure of you skill level but Roots on 5th and 6th string, standard 6th and 7th chord will cover changes. For Fmaj.7/A just use A-7. Try and not use Rock versions of open E and A Bar chords. Good luck, I think I'll start making short Vids of examples to post, I know it would help... Reg

voelker · #18 02-15-2010, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voelker

If its finding and fingering voicings that are close to each other, then you should go back to basics and make sure you completely understand triads. major, minor, diminished, augmented. all three inversions all sets of three strings.

This was one of the answers in my first post. Mastering triads is the first step in really understanding chord building, diatonic harmony, intervals, relative majors/minors. it will help you see how jazz chords overlap, like reg's example of using Am7 for your Fmaj7/A