mickey baker lesson 3 chord questions

[Oetomo]

Hello,

I am going through Mickey's lesson 3 at the moment and I am a little lost on the chord substitutions that he used.

He has Gdim for the standard and Bmi7 and Bbmin7 as substitutes.
Gdim is made up of G Bb Db E.
Bmin7 is made up of B D F# A and Bbmin7 is made up of Bb Db F Ab.

I can't see any similar notes between Gdim and Bmin7, while for Bbmin7 although there are Bb and Db in it, these are the root and 3rd of Bbmin7, which have nothing in common with Bb Db chord tones belonging to Gdim, since these are the 3rd of 5th of Gdim.

Thanks in advance for any inputs and enlightenment rendered.

Tomo

[musicjohnny]

By no means do know the answer, but from the question posed, the relationship I see from Gdim to Bmin7, is that all of the notes in Gdim move stepwise to Bmin7.

G Bb Db E
A B D F#

and same for Bmi7 to Bbmi 7 except instead of stepwise up, it's stepqise down.

B D F# A
Bb D F Ab

I'm curious to hear the answer for this.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

It would help to know the chords around the Gdim -- what is the chord progression? And are you given a melody line as well?

[fep]

Yes, impossible to answer with the information given..

The progression is

|G | Gmi |G |Gdim |Ami etc

Think of the |Gdim | as a way to approach the Ami (or Ami7).

Think of the substitution of |Bmi7 Bbmi7| as just another way to approach the Ami or Ami7.

Sometimes substititions don't sound like the orginal chord and don't have tones in common; but they have a similar function which is usually to get from one place to another

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

That makes sense to me, although in between G and Ami7 I would have played G#dim7, not Gdim7.

[pierre richard]

i have used both G dim on one progression and G# dim on another...they both sound good and both work...

don't forget the inversions of the dim chord with the root on the bottom...G dim can become Bb dim..right?

but smoothness is vital so do not stray too far away from the original hand position..

time on the instrument...pierre

[Oetomo]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the inputs given.
I am still lost in my understnding of the GDim substition, but I can see why C7 is substitued for Gmin6 and Gmin7, since Gmin6 has the chord tones for C9 and Gmin 7 has the chord tones for C11.
Please correct me if my understanding is for the C7 substitution to Gmin6 and Gmin7 is flawed.

Tomo

[fep]

You're correct C7 or C9 can often sub for Gmin or Gmin7, and Gmin7 can more often sub for C7 or C9. This is one type of substitution where the chords are both similar in that they share common tones, sound similar and share a common function. You could actual call this type of substitution an alteration instead of a substitution.

However, there is another type of substitution where the chords don't sound so similar but they do share a common function.

Example, assume this is our orginal chord progression:

|G | |Am | |G |

Dress it up a little with chord alteration (this is not a substitution):

|Gmaj7 | |Am7 | |Gmaj7 |

Now let's add some connecting chords (these are substitutions):

|Gmaj7 | Gdim |Am7 |D7 |Gmaj7 |

Now let's add different connecting chords (these are also substitutions):

|Gmaj7 |Bm7 Bbm7 |Am7 Ami6|D9 Ab7 |Gmaj7 |

Play and listen to the last 2 examples and notice how the Bm7 and Bbm7 is performing a similar funtion to the Gdim; Bm7 Bbm7 are functional substitutons of the Gdim. That function is they are both providing a smooth sounding progression from Gmaj7 to Am7.

Does that makes sense? These type of 'functional' substitutions are very common and to me are the true substitutions. (Substituting Gm7 for C9 hardly sounds like a sustitution at all, it's more like an alteration or embellishment)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Oetomo

I am still lost in my understnding of the GDim substition

Let give try. Rather than thinking of the progression starting with a diminished chord in it, think of it starting with no particular chord:

| GMaj7 | ? | Amin7 |

or starting with a G major that hangs around for two measures:

| GMaj7 | GMaj7 | Amin7 |

What can we do for that second measure, either to fill in the "?" or to play something more interesting than G major for the second measure, too? We can do the "circle of fifths" thing and play the dominant chord that wants to resolve to A minor, namely E7:

| GMaj7 | E7 | Amin7 |

Then we can take that basic E7 and alter it. Since it's going to a minor chord, we can make it more minor-sounding by making it a E7b9, and if you remove the root (E), you are left with the notes G#-B-D-F, namely a G#dim7:

| GMaj7 | G#dim7 | Amin7 |

This also gives you the bass line G->G#->A. (I still prefer this dim chord to G(natural)dim7.)

Another variation on E7 is to extend the circle of fifth thing and play Bmin7 then E7:

| GMaj7 | Bmin7 E7 | Amin7 |

or some variation on that (Bmin7b5 E7#9, etc...)

A variation on Bmin7 E7 is to do a tritone substitution and play some Bb chord in place of E7. The easiest one to finger would be to hold the same minor form:

| GMaj7 | Bmin7 Bbmin7 | Amin7 |

That sounds especially good to my ears if you punch those chromatic chords: B! Bb! A!

Conclusion: we're not directly subbing Bmin7 and Bbmin7 for some diminished chord. Instead we're thinking: I want to land on an A minor chord, what's a cool way to get there?

EDIT: beat me to it, fepster!

[Oetomo]

Wow! Thank you guys for the explanation.
I think I am getting a grasp on this thing.