Mickey Baker book wrong chord?

[jeppelavsen]

Hello everyone! I was just starting on Mickey Bakers first book, when i noticed something odd. chord number 9 on page two. How can that be a A13b9?

It shows the notes: A-F#-C-F
it doesnt have either a major 3rd or any kind of seventh? It rather looks like and am6/b5 or something..

Is the book wrong?

[Drumbler]

From Mike Joyce's wonderful site...

Lesson 1

"Chord Form 9: This form, an A13b9, looks very much like a common diminished 7th chord. The root of the chord is always one fret lower than the note on the 6th string. By playing a 1/2 barre with the 1st finger, the chord can "move" to a 7b9 (in this particular example, an A7b9) just by lifting the fourth finger (which, by the way, turns the form into Mickey's Chord Form 26.) If we move the note on the 6th string one fret lower, our chord is a 13th. As you can see, this form is very useful. An interesting variation is by moving the note on the 6th string to the 1st string."

[JohnW400]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-F-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---| F#|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|



If this is what it looks like in the book then it's Ab 13b9.

The A is really B double flat (b9 of Ab) The F# is really Gb. This chord could also be D7#9/A or an F# dim(ma7)/A.

Other less common usages could be as either an F dim2/A or A B7#9 #11/A depending on how it resolves.

[Drumbler]

The root of the chord is always one fret lower than the note on the 6th string.


The note on the 6th is A#

[fep]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

The root of the chord is always one fret lower than the note on the 6th string.


The note on the 6th is A#

Confusing, in the first post OP didn't list A# as one of the notes of the chord.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

The root of the chord is always one fret lower than the note on the 6th string.


The note on the 6th is A#

Then , based soley on the notes presented by the OP you get this:

Bb Gb C F , which is not a 13b9 form

The notes that appear in the OP are A F# (Gb) C F. These notes are part of an Ab13 b9 chord which is supported by your statement above. A 1/2 step below A is Ab

[Drumbler]

It's the same shape as your diagram John but one fret higher.

A13b9

---------------------
-----7--------------
-----6---------------
-----5---------------
----------------------
-----6-----------------

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by jeppelavsen

Hello everyone! I was just starting on Mickey Bakers first book, when i noticed something odd. chord number 9 on page two. How can that be a A13b9?

It shows the notes: A-F#-C-F
it doesnt have either a major 3rd or any kind of seventh? It rather looks like and am6/b5 or something..

Is the book wrong?

I think you are counting wrong. In my book it says:
--x--
--7--
--6--
--5--
--x--
--6--

That is Bb-G-C#-F#

An A13b9 should have (A)-C#-(E)-G-Bb-F#... root and 5th in () because they are not nessecary. So A13b9 it is!

[Earl]

I have Mickey Baker's book I and the only thing I noticed about chord #9
is that it has the note on the 6th string at the 6th fret which of course is
Bb which is the b9 of A. Mickey is CORRECT!

Identifying the other notes shown and comparing them to the scale of A
proves this.

The Earl of Soco

[Earl]

just noticed your post...You and I agree with Mickey Baker

The Earl of Soco

[srsteve]

I love the Mickey Baker book it's how I learned my first simple jazz progresions. I couldn't go advanced with it cause I don't hear it and if
I can't haer it I can't play it. I would like a simple arrangment to the
Christmas song by Mel Torme it anyone has one!

[markf]

don't know anything about Baker books, but lots of fake books have chords that don't work very well.

[Earl]

If you learn your scales and chord formulas...then you can tell which ones
work well (even if you don't trust your ears.

The Earl of Soco

[srsteve]

Originally Posted by Earl

If you learn your scales and chord formulas...then you can tell which ones
work well (even if you don't trust your ears.

The Earl of Soco

Yes the basic 1 4 5 progression is the base jazz chords color this basic
formula but it's always 1 4 5 with two minor chords in the scale,

[Earl]

First, we have the diatonic scale of C (do,re,mi,fa,so,la,ti,do) This is the
ONLY scale which has no #'s or b's. From C to D is a whole step: from D to E is a whole step; from E to F is a HALF step; from F to G is a whole step; from G to A is a whole step; from A to B is a whole step; from B to
C is a HALF step.

When starting on any other note, it cannot be a diatonic scale unless the
above (whole step-HALF step)relationship is maintained This is how you
arrive at all the keys of music.
Let's number the scale 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 (all the numbers used to define chords. 9-13 would be D E F G A in the key of C)
Example: 1 3 5 b7 would be C E G Bb or C7
scale of A = A B C# D E F# G# so a b9 would be Bb (or A#) which was
the note in question on Mickey Baker's fret diagram.
HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! The Earl of Soco

[NeillonGuitar]

Originally Posted by jeppelavsen

Hello everyone! I was just starting on Mickey Bakers first book, when i noticed something odd. chord number 9 on page two. How can that be a A13b9?

It shows the notes: A-F#-C-F
it doesnt have either a major 3rd or any kind of seventh? It rather looks like and am6/b5 or something..

Is the book wrong?

The Bb is the root on the 6th string.

I like to think of that page as Baker trying to turn you on to different ways of spelling common chords, and working with inversions.

The spelling for that one is b9, b7, 3, 13

For best results I would write out the diagrams again on an a4 page and work out the spelling for each one. It becomes a useful exercise then, and not just time spent memorising how to 'grab' new chords.

I think too there is much in Baker's direction, "take as much time with this exercise as you need too..."
I found that you could safely devote 2 weeks to each lesson and still be getting stuff from them!
Don't be frightened too early - the later lessons ease you into the use of the different types of chords on that page.

NL

[cosmic gumbo]

This thread is making me retarded.

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by NeillonGuitar

The Bb is the root on the 6th string.

It is a A13b9, so the Bb is not the root. In fact it is a rootless chord.

[cosmic gumbo]

Originally Posted by jeppelavsen

Hello everyone! I was just starting on Mickey Bakers first book, when i noticed something odd. chord number 9 on page two. How can that be a A13b9?

It shows the notes: A-F#-C-F
it doesnt have either a major 3rd or any kind of seventh? It rather looks like and am6/b5 or something..

Is the book wrong?

If your book says it is an A13b9, and the notes given are A, F#, C, F, it is wrong, wrong, wrong.

[NeillonGuitar]

Originally Posted by gersdal

It is a A13b9, so the Bb is not the root. In fact it is a rootless chord.

Oops, my bad.

Just trying to ease the approach velocity for the OP.

NL

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

If your book says it is an A13b9, and the notes given are A, F#, C, F, it is wrong, wrong, wrong.

This is not very helpfull any longer. The book is correct, but some readers are sloppy and are reading this chord as if the root is on the 6th string and automatically correct the written chord accordingly. It is not. It is a rootless chord with the b9 on the 6th string.

The book says:
--x--
--7--
--6--
--5--
--x--
--6--

That is Bb-G-C#-F#

An A13b9 should have (A)-C#-(E)-G-Bb-F#... root and 5th in () because they are not nessecary. So A13b9 it is!

[randalljazz]

HOORAY!!!!!
only 17 posts required to clear that up!

[ocnote]

I'm actually having trouble with chord number 6, which is a D13b5b9. My problem is that it just doesn't sound very good in the context of the chord progressions given in the next few exercises. I kept thinking I was doing something wrong and checked and checked again if i got the fingering right, and I'm pretty sure I'm playing the right notes. But it just doesn't sound right
Does anyone else have this??

I'm still pretty new to jazz (and the guitar in general) but I used a book from the library a couple of months ago that got me started on some standard chord voicings for II V I progressions and it just sounded so much better than Mickey Baker's progressions.

I'm a bit at a loss and it's really taking the fun out of learning all of the progressions.

Any advice?

-- ocnote

[dwdougherty]

You're not the only one. I thought the same thing when I first encountered that chord. I kept counting frets to make sure I was playing it correctly. I kept at it, though, and I can now wrap my head around the sound.

I set Mickey's book aside for a while and I'm following another methodology that uses simpler chords forms to start: Chords & Progressions for Jazz & Popular Guitar (Berle) and Patterns, Scales and Modes for Jazz Guitar (Berle). I'm also enrolled in the Jimmy Bruno Guitar Institute, and I find that these books are very complementary to Bruno's method (it's actually uncanny how much overlap there is).

-David

[srsteve]

When I started with the first page of chords I was excited to get a few jazz chord progressions down quickly. i was fasinated with the G13b5b9 chord. I don't know exactly were to use it except as an ending chord and it works for me. I think the Baker book is ok to get started and train your ear to 9th chords etc. What book from Library did you get that was better?? Like to know.

[ocnote]

thanks for the replies. makes me feel better that i'm not the only one. so i guess i'll just keep going with mickey's program and eventually i'll either get used to the sound of the D13b5b9 or i can eventually use some other chords with the same function that come later in the program that i like the sound of more.

the book from the library is called:

Die Jazzmethode fuer Gitarre Bd. 1 by Rolf Toennes

but it's only available in german. It doesn't have nearly as much material as the Baker book, but it has some nice voicings for ii V I with root on the fifth and sixth string and has you comping (in a very simple manner) to some standards (like autumn leaves) within a few weeks of study and was a very satisfying start into jazz guitar for me.

-- ocnote

[SHR]

I just happen to have Mickey Baker's book by me when reading the thread. Mickey's right of course, the problem is that he does not spell out the notes and he never marks the fret numbers, so it's easy to misread the position of some of his chord shapes!