Comping with a piano player - having a challenge

[SwingSwangSwung]

I'm playing with a piano player in a small (guitar, piano, singer) jazz group. All I can say is the magic is not there when we are both comping behind the singer at the same time. We're doing mostly slow ballads.

One thing that I suggested was for him to move the right hand up an octave as we were both in the same register and that helped a bit.

Any suggestions for him or for me?

Thanks!

[merseybeat]

Hi, if he is good then just back off a bit, especially the alterations and let him get on with it! Just try and agree some rules for when its your turn to shred!
Enjoy him! Good piano players are hard to find!

Also as an ex producers tip, make sure your amp is separated well away from his sound source!
Think Studio panning! Piano Left - Bass and Drums Center - Guitar Right.

This separation will give you some cool dynamics and free a little Aural space!

Eddie

[peterk1]

Are you trying to do piano style comping along with the piano?

What I usually do when there is a piano present is tend towards the Freddy Green style strumming. Always sounds good. Mark the quarter notes. Let the piano do the short stabs. You be the drums.

[JohnW400]

Good advice from both peter1 and Eddie.

Ballads are tough because theres a lot of time to fill as opposed to something that's moving along at say 80-110 bpm

Singers love to play with the time on ballads.

Also, It might be a good idea to work out who plays what on each tune. Like on some tunes the piano plays tha A section and the guitar the B or what have you.

Singers are pretty particular about what they want to hear behind them. You should probably include him/her in the discussion.

[wizard3739]

I have found it useful to play melodic harmony (A La Jimmy Raney) behind the singer if the keyboard player is good at accompaniment. Unfortunately, most of the keyboard players I have worked with are really best when playing solo. Chord melody is not viable unless the keyboard lays back or plays only a few chords. When your playing without a singer, if you listen to each other, some very nice, creative music is very possible.

wiz

[merseybeat]

All good advice! Always remember these things take time! After a few gigs you will naturally start trading and hopefully have friends for life.

Good luck!

Eddie

[derek]

I would listen to Jim Hall on his recordings with just a pianist.

Free Association - Geoffrey Keezer
Undercurrent - Bill Evans
Intermodulation - Bill Evans

And discs of Oscar Peterson with Joe Pass come to mind also. I think JH wrote the book on playing with a pianist, but plenty of guitarists have done it well thru the years. Good luck

[cosmic gumbo]

I'd suggest you also listen to some piano and vibes to hear how they comp together behind a soloist. It's definitely an issue when two chord playing instruments are in a rhythm section together.

[mydoglikessalsa]

Maybe you could try taking turns between comping and light fills during breaks in the vocal melody. Also, try very very sparse voicings, maybe down to two notes at a time. Harmonize your scales in thirds or sixths, then just bounce them around between dissonant and consonant notes sparingly, moving from extensions to basic chord tones. If you don't get busy with it you can add some nice melodic momentum without distracting from the vocalist. Of course, if you do get too busy (with almost any technique) in that format, you could lose the gig. Good luck!

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by derek

I would listen to Jim Hall on his recordings with just a pianist.

Free Association - Geoffrey Keezer
Undercurrent - Bill Evans
Intermodulation - Bill Evans

And discs of Oscar Peterson with Joe Pass come to mind also. I think JH wrote the book on playing with a pianist, but plenty of guitarists have done it well thru the years. Good luck

Great examples! Didn't Jim do one with George Shearing called Volume 1?
And Oscar Peterson's work with Herb Ellis I like even more than Joe's (blasphemy around here, I know!)
Walter Norris, Billy Bean and Hal Gaylor
Ed Bickert with Don Thompson
Ed Bickert at Maybeck with Bill Mays
On the more modern side, Bill Frisell's partnership with Fred Hersch is profound.
Kurt Rosenwinkel on Intuit
John Abercrombie's quartet with Richie Beirach
Abercrombie with Don Thompson

Sometimes the piano player just likes to play. Space and silence take a lot to learn. Nothing wrong with laying out. An occasional rhythmic/chordal accent is a good spice but sometimes you can just think of yourself as a horn player.

David

[sc06yl]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Singers love to play with the time on ballads.

You mean most singers have a poor conception of time feel...and just say they play around with the time, right?

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Singers are pretty particular about what they want to hear behind them.

You mean most singers have hyper-critical ears for everything and everyone but themselves, right?

...I may have a little bit of a hate on for some singers...but I can't think of more than two singers who I have had a good jam with...most singers I have experienced (maybe about a dozen now) try and run the show, which I guess makes sense because they are ones that everyone is listening too (for the most part), but from my experience they are the ones that are usually the least, for lack of a better word, musical...

[Stackabones]

Originally Posted by sc06yl

You mean most singers have a poor conception of time feel...and just say they play around with the time, right?



You mean most singers have hyper-critical ears for everything and everyone but themselves, right?

...I may have a little bit of a hate on for some singers...but I can't think of more than two singers who I have had a good jam with...most singers I have experienced (maybe about a dozen now) try and run the show, which I guess makes sense because they are ones that everyone is listening too (for the most part), but from my experience they are the ones that are usually the least, for lack of a better word, musical...

Sounds just like a jazz sideman. The spotlight is kept off sidemen so that no one can see them scowling (or it's just another restaurant instrumental gig where "Could You Please Turn Down" is the number one request).

Perhaps you should play with better singers or find better singers who will hire you? Consider this, the best singers will usually only jam with or hire top notch players. Iron sharpens iron.

[pingu]

good suggestions
Anthony Wilson and Diana Krall are good together too