Chords without the 3rd

[pinbridge]

It's a great setup for returning to a Gmaj tonic. I've used that trick (with a brief reference to V7, returning to V7sus4) in a couple of songs.

Hi Thumpalumpacus. You seem to know what D-7sus4 is. What is it? If it's root, b3, 4, 5, b7, it sounds contradictory to me. However, if it means root, 4, 5, b7 (no b3rd), I would simply write it D7sus4. It would just be as bizarre as writing D-sus4 instead of Dsus4. Actually, I've never come across a minor sus4 like D-sus4.

[cosmic gumbo]

I just played a big band holiday gig with a Dm sus4 in one chart. I grabbed xx3233. If they asked for Dm7 sus4 I would have grabbed xx3213, but....that was the first chart to ask for that out of hundreds and hundreds I've played, plus, technically I believe it should have said Dm add4, because sus implies NO third.

[pinbridge]

plus, technically I believe it should have said Dm add4, because sus implies NO third.

Exactly. I totally agree. That makes me wonder if it's simply a mistake on the chart or there's really a meaning to it we don't understand. In any case, it's poor notation at best.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hi Thumpalumpacus. You seem to know what D-7sus4 is. What is it? If it's root, b3, 4, 5, b7, it sounds contradictory to me. However, if it means root, 4, 5, b7 (no b3rd), I would simply write it D7sus4. It would just be as bizarre as writing D-sus4 instead of Dsus4. Actually, I've never come across a minor sus4 like D-sus4.

Oh, I wasn't giving your dash any significance, I thought it was simple punctuation. I have no idea what D-7sus4 is ... maybe a poor mark in a music class?

If a chord has both the 3rd (major or minor doesn't matter) and the 4th, then it is an add4, not a sus4. The same rule of thumb applies to sus/add2s.

[docbop]

Oh, I wasn't giving your dash any significance, I thought it was simple punctuation. I have no idea what D-7sus4 is ... maybe a poor mark in a music class?

If a chord has both the 3rd (major or minor doesn't matter) and the 4th, then it is an add4, not a sus4. The same rule of thumb applies to sus/add2s.

I agree with Da Thump here can't have a Sus and a 3rd. If I saw that I'd think the cat really mean an 11th which would still imply having a 3rd.

To me this like where some will say a #4 is same thing as a b5, and they get ticked when I say no. Enharmonically the note is the same, but as to the chord a #4 implies there still can be a 5th in the chord. Where a b5 says if there's a 5th it's flatted. So a Sus and a 11th are different a Sus the 3rd is being replaced, but in an 11th the 3rd can still be there.

I didn't study much traditional/classical harmony mainly modern/Jazz harmony. What I see in traditional is sus is a process for lack of other term in which a sus chord then resolves to a chord with a 3rd. Now in the Jazz world the Sus chord has taken on it's own life and composers will hang on a sus chord. But seems like many times they aren't really sus chords they are 11th chords which then the 3rd is cool.

So to me a D-7sus is a mistake the composer or copyist needs to choose D-11 or Dsus.

[christianm77]

I agree with Da Thump here can't have a Sus and a 3rd. If I saw that I'd think the cat really mean an 11th which would still imply having a 3rd.

To me this like where some will say a #4 is same thing as a b5, and they get ticked when I say no. Enharmonically the note is the same, but as to the chord a #4 implies there still can be a 5th in the chord. Where a b5 says if there's a 5th it's flatted. So a Sus and a 11th are different a Sus the 3rd is being replaced, but in an 11th the 3rd can still be there.

I didn't study much traditional/classical harmony mainly modern/Jazz harmony. What I see in traditional is sus is a process for lack of other term in which a sus chord then resolves to a chord with a 3rd. Now in the Jazz world the Sus chord has taken on it's own life and composers will hang on a sus chord. But seems like many times they aren't really sus chords they are 11th chords which then the 3rd is cool.

So to me a D-7sus is a mistake the composer or copyist needs to choose D-11 or Dsus.

Yup, I agree....

Traditional harmony defines a suspension thus:

Suspension, in music, a means of creating tension by prolonging a consonant note while the underlying harmony changes, normally on a strong beat. The resulting dissonance persists until the suspended note resolves by stepwise motion into a new consonant harmony

So a suspension could be if you play a G7 followed by a C, but delay the resolution of the F to E creating a Csus4 chord. The F would tend to replace E if only because in four part writing we do not double the 3rd in a root position chord.

But you could do the same thing with the B, and then you'd have a Csus7 chord, so to speak. We would write it Cmaj7, of course.

The most common suspension is found in a cadence, and a perfect cadence will often involve a suspension on the V chord. This is probably the origin of the V7sus4.

Obviously chord symbol notation is a highly imperfect representation of harmony, and to a great degree a simplification of actual voice movement (big band guitar charts are often quite surreal if they involve the horn harmony), which why I kind of hate that jazz theory has become so preoccupied with them. At best they represent vertical slices of the harmony which a skilled interpreter can interpolate.

To me, learning a standards harmony is getting rid of the chord symbols and working with the melody... Anyway another thread.

[christianm77]

I feel like adding that non-function sus chords are labelled such due to an artifact of the chord symbol system.

They are not really sus chords. They are quartal harmonies or polychords. But, notating them as familiar chords makes it easier to read them.

It's like m11's

m11 chords most frequently occur when a V7 chord is expanded in a IIm7-V7. For instance, there is a G7 chord with the melody on G, and the additional Dm7 chord becomes a Dm11 chord with no 9th. In practice, there's no reason why we can't put the 5th on there as well, but in practice we tend not to in 4-part voicings.

This is different to the Quartal 'So What' chord, where the 11th (actually a 4th!) occurs in the middle of the voicing. We should really be calling these chords something else.