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I'm currently learning 'I'll see you in my dreams' and after transcribing a few players (Tommy Emmanuel, Django, Joe Robinson) I have found a trend in their playing when approaching certain dominant chords.
The first half of chord sequence is:
Bb - Bbm - F - D7 - G7 -Gm7 - C7
On the D7 i have noticed all players approach this chord using a G harmonic minor like tonality and that it is really effective. I can see how this works as The D7 is approaching the G7 and this is essentially picking out the notes of the D7 altered scale...
But i've found if i use this approach on a D7 in the context of a 2-5-1 progression (Am7 -D7 - Gmaj7) that it sounds out of place and i wouldn't be able to phrase in that harmonic minor/gypsy jazz style way.
I have also noticed that using this approach with D7 in a G blues progression is effective as it is again a D7 going to a G7. I have googled around and can't find any one to really explain why this works.
So should i treat the the first chord in a V7 to a I7 differently to a V7 to a IMaj7?
I have been playing for quite a few years now and have intuitively learnt what sounds right using my ear and i am not sure if this is linked to my above question but is it similar to why playing mixolydian scales on every chord in a blues progression wouldn't work?
I apologise if this is hard to understand, but if anyone can help or make sense of what i'm asking that would be greatly appreciated!Last edited by Tomharvey27; 08-09-2017 at 06:32 AM.
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08-08-2017 01:31 PM
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I lot of good questions there man
Try these chords out ...
|Bb6. |Bbmin6. |Fmaj7 E7. |F6 |
|D |Gmin(11)|G9. |G-9. (C-7 F7) |
What d you think ?
Then ask away , lots of good people here ...
Maybe one question at a time tho
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Using G HarMi over D7 was a favorite of Bebop era. You see it the b9 talked about as important note to them on dominant, well the other favorite was the b13. A G HarMi over D7 gives you a dominant scale with a b9 and b13 and no other colors, so a D7 b9 b13 chord.
I'd say experiment with using a 7b9 b13 chord to get a feel for where the sound fits and the timing to use, then work on using the scale to imply the chord in your lines. Using a Boppish sound in a gut-bucket Blues not going to be easy. Experiment with adding those sounds (b9 b13) in descending lines and your regular Mixolydian on ascending lines.
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Hmmm... Lemme see.
Originally Posted by Tomharvey27
Rather than use a straight up harmonic minor sound Barry Harris students learn to play the F7 sound into the third of D7, for instance - modally that's going from F dominant/mixolydian into a G harmonic minor by turning the F into an F#.... For instance you might practice this on Am7b5 | D7 | Gmaj7 | :
F G A Bb C D Eb D | C Bb A G F# A C Eb | D
But you don't have to put that leading seventh in if you don't want to. The reason why that G harmonic minor sounds out of place (IMO) is because of the 7 b6 (F# Db) leap. You have the same exact problem with G harmonic major which is why that scale isn't a good solution either IMO. We need to think more horizontally and flat the 7.
Listen to Parker. He will play F Eb D into the G major, sometimes F# F Eb D - I mean everyone does that post Bird. It's a bop cliche.
I have no idea. I'll have to give this a try.I have also noticed that using this approach with D7 in a G blues progression is effective as it is again a D7 going to a G7. I have googled around and can't find any one to really explain why this works.
So should i treat the the first chord in a V7 to a I7 differently to a V7 to a IMaj7?
Not all dominants are created equal. There is a real classical logic of dominant chords in straight ahead jazz - I was thinking of that listening to Soul Station today.I have been playing for quite a few years now and have intuitively learnt what sounds right using my ear and i am not sure if this is linked to my above question but is it similar to why playing mixolydian scales on every chord in a blues progression wouldn't work?
I apologise if this is hard to understand, but if anyone can help or make sense of what i'm asking that would be greatly appreciated!Last edited by christianm77; 08-09-2017 at 04:14 PM.
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That E7. ;-) Django was incapable of playing the correct changes to anything. Originally Posted by pingu
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Should be an E augmented.
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;-D
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Thanks for the response!
I'm a bit confused about what you mean when you say the "7 b6 (F# Db) leap." Where is there a db involved?
And you said that the g harmonic minor sounds out of place to you and that we need to think more horizontaly, what did you mean by that exactly?
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I should have written F# Eb ... scuse me Originally Posted by Tomharvey27
When I say horizontal I mean focus on creating a smooth melodic line, rather than feeling you have to play F# etc in order to express the D7 chord.
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I am definitely NOT a fan of Chord Scale theory, or of thinking one scale per chord. I like to think in the overall key of the song, and add accidentals where appropriate.
"I'll see you in my dreams" is in F. The G harmonic minor scale is practically an F scale with the F# outlining the D7 Chord. That is, you're basically staying in the same key, you only alter one note to make it fit the chord. BTW the same is true for the Bb minor chord, where all you have to do is flatten the D.
With an Am7 - D7 - Gmaj7 progression, you are firmly in the key of G. An F scale would sound out of place there, since the F itself clashes with the F# both in the D7 and the Gmaj7. G harmonic minor, which has the F#, is problematic, too, if only for the Bb that doesn't belong to the key and IMHO needs to be resolved to the major third (B natural).
Harmonically speaking, the D7 in "I'll see you" is a VI chord, not a dominant as in the Am7 - D7 - Gmaj7 progression. That's a completely different context.
Hope that helps, Stephan
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Yes, because they are 2 different chords, obviously, and Jazz is "playing on chord". Originally Posted by Tomharvey27
One way or another, in the end, you will inevitably hit chord notes, extensions and alterations.
V7 to I7 implies blues.
V7 to IMaj7 implies standard major/ minor thing.
Then you find the way to play the blues over standard progressions and the other way around, and there, you are playing Jazz.
Then you learn to babble about it all they long and you get praised on internet forums.
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Secondary dominants Key of C Major in relationship to the original scale notes:
D7 (V of V) - F is #9
E7 (V of VI) - G is #9
A7 (V of II) - C is #9
B7 (V of III ) - D is #9 and F is b5
It is a viable sound to draw from the original scale notes against these chords or adjust to the changed note as per preference.
Whereas for the other possible secondary dominants addressing the changed note holds greater weight.
C7 (V of IV) Bb - b7
F7 (blues sub dominant) Eb - b7
G7 (V of I) is dominant prime, born and raised by the major scale.
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When people say this sort of stuff I do kind of wonder what they've been transcribing. Originally Posted by docsteve
You wouldn't use F on a Gmaj7 scale but the b3/#2 whatever of the V7 is extremely common, so you get for instance F Eb D C on the D7 chord resolving into B on the G chord. It's an absolute cliche. It's on practically every bop era record I can think of. Parker, Miles, Wes, Wynton, Bud - they all played it.
Sometimes there's an F#, but sometimes there isn't.
It would be easier to play this to you. You would recognise the sound right away.
There's a couple of ways you can think of this. The way I tend to think of it as as a backdoor type thing, F7 perhaps with an F# in there (F7 to the third of D7) influenced by Barry Harris. Berklee cats would say altered (but they are wrong ;-))
Yeah VI7 chords can take either b9 or 9 depending on the melody. G harmonic minor (F7 to the third of D7) is fine for blowing in this context.Harmonically speaking, the D7 in "I'll see you" is a VI chord, not a dominant as in the Am7 - D7 - Gmaj7 progression. That's a completely different context.
Hope that helps, Stephan
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Since getting into jazz the last few years i have very much tried to play per chord and it has not been until recently ive started to think in terms of key... i have noticed my playing improve significantly and become a lot more fluid, but im still stuck in habbits of locking to scales/arpgeios/ the same shapes when certain chords appear. Originally Posted by docsteve
So if you see this in the key of F, does that make the Bb the fourth/lydian. To me it sounds right with a regular 4th instead of a raised one, how would you interpret the Bb?
This last sentence really helped clear it up, i think looking at it in terms of how the chords relate to each other in the key is definitely making it easier for me improvise. Originally Posted by docsteve
Just out of interest in the standard lady bird do you approach it in the same way and treat that in the key of C, and see the changes in harmony as still the same key with accidentals or do you see it as a modulation into a new key? (Im assuming you know this standard... no worries if not!)
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Yeah this has cleared it up, thank you. Originally Posted by Vladan
Then you find the way to play the blues over standard progressions and the other way around, and there, you are playing Jazz.
[/QUOTE]
This is coming more apparent to be the more i learn about jazz and makes me wish i came from a blues background when getting into jazz...
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Well, since Christian told me off in no uncertain terms I may not be the right person to ask Originally Posted by Tomharvey27
I see the whole tune in the key of F and go on from there. "Play G harmonic minor over that D7" is effectively saying "play the notes from the F major scale but replace that F with F#".
On the Bb chord, I think: "It's the subdominant of F, so I play in F and accentuate the chord tones". I do not think "Oh, Bb is the subdominant of F, it calls for the Bb lydian scale".
I do know that when I play an F major scale over a Bb chord, some people would call it Bb lydian. I just can't see the need.
To my mind, it is easier to move in a particular tonality and choose the accidentals according to the underlying chords. Or I play a few juicy extensions over them. Or flatten a few notes to give it that proper jazz sound.
And sorry, I don't know "Lady Bird". I haven't done my homework, you know.
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Seriously? a little much? Originally Posted by docsteve
Well, since Christian told me off in no uncertain terms I may not be the right person to ask
Maybe it was in some other thread or a deleted post?
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No, he was quite nice. He is British after all. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Ah. Yes. That's what it was. I was blinded by his "accent". Originally Posted by docsteve
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You are a very naughty boy Originally Posted by docsteve
Well, since Christian told me off in no uncertain terms I may not be the right person to ask
I see the whole tune in the key of F and go on from there. "Play G harmonic minor over that D7" is effectively saying "play the notes from the F major scale but replace that F with F#".
On the Bb chord, I think: "It's the subdominant of F, so I play in F and accentuate the chord tones". I do not think "Oh, Bb is the subdominant of F, it calls for the Bb lydian scale".
I do know that when I play an F major scale over a Bb chord, some people would call it Bb lydian. I just can't see the need.
To my mind, it is easier to move in a particular tonality and choose the accidentals according to the underlying chords. Or I play a few juicy extensions over them. Or flatten a few notes to give it that proper jazz sound.
And sorry, I don't know "Lady Bird". I haven't done my homework, you know.
In all seriousness, these types of conversations do end up getting a bit abstract - really it's the musical lines you play that count however you think of them...
But I do think you on a good track with the key centric thing, and actually the whole F# in F major scale is exactly how I think about handling a VI7 chord.
However, using the F is 'permitted'* too in the right melodic situation. And of course you are also free to flat the E which is kind of the default bop thing to do
*when I say permitted I kind of mean stylistic for this type of bebop line ..... The jazz police won't come after you I promise.Last edited by christianm77; 08-17-2017 at 11:47 AM.
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Thinking in terms of scales is not always productive. I just listened to Django's version a bit, and sure enough it's an dom 7 arpeggio with neighbour tones on that chord. I'm pretty positive that he wasn't thinking of those notes as a part of any scale, but rather outlining the chord tones. That fits the style, anyway. I often play altered 5th, 9th, to add color, but again, I don't think of it as scales. Originally Posted by Tomharvey27
As a second part of the question why the same licks don't always work on V7- Imaj, I'm not really sure, but Vladan's explanation seem to make sense.
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Django knew his chord progressions very well, it's the melodies, the heads he didn't really care for
Another one similar, btw, is Them There Eyes, when he plays Db7 (key of D) in the 3rd-4th measures. I love the look of the singers when you do that and they are starting to freak out, because they don't usually listen to Django and expect straightahead changes. Most of them, anyway.
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Have you heard his changes to Embraceable You? Very bizarre. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
You're sure taking the piss mate
Django knew his chord progressions very well, it's the melodies, the heads he didn't really care for
Another one similar, btw, is Them There Eyes, when he plays Db7 (key of D) in the 3rd-4th measures. I love the look of the singers when you do that and they are starting to freak out, because they don't usually listen to Django and expect straightahead changes. Most of them, anyway.
Anyway the Django Them There Eyes changes don't even fit the tune in the last eight.
So You actually have to know these tunes in different versions depending on you are playing with. (Let's not get into the European vs American changes thing etc - it's a rabbit hole)
So to summarise - Django, a genius. Didn't give a stuff about the right melody or changes. He's allowed, we are not.
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Django's note choices are often (but not always) pretty chordal. But then here is the unwritten thing - whose language are you trying to learn? Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
If you want to play bebop for instance there are some very stylistic way to play scales. But maybe you want to play like Django in which case scales take a second fiddle to arpeggios - often simple triads.
Otoh if you want to play like Kurt Rosenwinkel, that's a whole different thing.
BUT - In the case of the contemporary stuff I have heard Lage Lund demonstrating simple triad arps through a tune and sounding very modern doing it - so my feeling is that this is a great first step regardless of what dialect of jazz interests you. It's the skeleton that holds everything together.
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True, but it's also about the tunes. I'll See You In My Dreams is a hot jazz staple, I'm not even sure straight ahead guys interested to play that kind of stuff. In my case, bebop bass players, for example, had to look into charts because they never played that one before. Originally Posted by christianm77
Otoh sure, I'm not very interested to play like Kurt Rosenwinkle, and I keep forgetting that many people are, and they would want to skip the archaic approach probably... But as you mentioned, and i totally agree, the triads might be a good first step for anything.
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