The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #326

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    I do like a nice whole tone, but it's a bit like lime pickle - a little goes a long way (unless you are my wife)

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  3. #327

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    @djg Ab dominant are you talking about improvisation or harmony?

    This thread is focussed on the harmonic system of BH's teaching.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-13-2017 at 03:14 PM.

  4. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I do like a nice whole tone, but it's a bit like lime pickle - a little goes a long way (unless you are my wife)
    I think you are making an unintentional joke here. But then again, maybe a "pickle" is something different across the pond.

  5. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    @djg Ab dominant are you talking about improvisation or harmony?

    This thread is focussed on the harmonic system of BH's teaching.
    Yes, I admit I was more asking about how Barry Harris looks at augmented triads for harmonic reasons. I do acknowledge that I said "whole tones scales" as well, and I appreciate the discussion on those.

    Pat Martino talks about the augmented triad as a parent for certain harmonic sounds which he then uses to create substitutions and voice leading. There seems to be a lot of overlap, and I was wondering if there was something similar in the Barry Harris system to the dim chord blended with the Maj6 chord, for example using aug triads and major triads blended. Does he talk about blending an aug chord with another chord to form a usable scale? Is the G7#5 a Gaug with a "borrowed note"? Does Barry address the four families of aug triads in a similar way as he addresses the three dim families?

    I inserted my question in the middle of @WILSON1 question, so I apologize for possibly distracting from that and I've been trying to wait my turn.

  6. #330

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    I ask genuinely as I know the Ab dominant is the choice for soloing (it's what I use)but not sure what the choice is for the 6th dim scales. I was thinking Ebm6-dim but not 100% certain.

  7. #331

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    i don't know. personally i use the min6dim concept for tonic minors if at all. but since BH likes to adress dom chords as they are and is not into subbing them with minor chords, my guess would be that the min6dim concept would not be used here to create motion. but again i'm no expert on this. for me cherokee is too fast anyway to insert much movement into that one bar (i play Ab7b5 for only one bar going to Adim for one bar for the D and C in the melody)
    Also Ebm6 is part of Bb maj 6-dim, Ab7 is not

  8. #332

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    Going by Alan's book, I think both Christian's and djg's suggestions are ok for a non-resolving Ab7, as follows:
    Ebmin6/dim (page 19)
    Ab7b5/dim (page 4)
    Ab7/dim (page 4).

  9. #333

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    are you sure? not ebdim?
    Both Ebm6 and Ebdim are part of the Bbmaj6-dim. Check it out.

    Ebm6 can be thought of as an Ebdim7 chord with one tone (Bb) borrowed from the Bb6

    There's quite a few cool things buried in the scale....

  10. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Both Ebm6 and Ebdim are part of the Bbmaj6-dim. Check it out.

    Ebm6 can be thought of as an Ebdim7 chord with one tone (Bb) borrowed from the Bb6

    There's quite a few cool things buried in the scale....
    Son of a gun...I think you've got one of those "little things" Barry keeps referring to...

    ...and that puts a min6 on the b7 of the dominant of the key...I think you mentioned that before.

    And I think you've got the mystery chord in that CODA too...

    Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-coda-d-png

  11. #335

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I do like a nice whole tone, but it's a bit like lime pickle - a little goes a long way (unless you are my wife)
    so you're saying your little lime pickle is not enough for your wife.

  12. #336

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Son of a gun...I think you've got one of those "little things" Barry keeps referring to...

    ...and that puts a min6 on the b7 of the dominant of the key...I think you mentioned that before.

    And I think you've got the mystery chord in that CODA too...

    Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-coda-d-png
    fwiw, I think the chord shown as D7#5#9 should really be thought of as Cm11b5. That gives you a full bar of II, followed by a bar of V resolving to Bb6/9

  13. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanZ
    fwiw, I think the chord shown as D7#5#9 should really be thought of as Cm11b5. That gives you a full bar of II, followed by a bar of V resolving to Bb6/9
    Yup, your right. That's why I have the functional harmonics below as a full bar of II. But as for naming the chord...that's something we are still working out.


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  14. #338

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Yup, your right. That's why I have the functional harmonics below as a full bar of II. But as for naming the chord...that's something we are still working out.


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    Your= you're


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  15. #339

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Yup, your right. That's why I have the functional harmonics below as a full bar of II. But as for naming the chord...that's something we are still working out.
    When I'm writing things like this out for my own benefit, I tend to write 2 chord names if necessary, i.e. the actual 'functioning' name and then the 'Barry Harris' chord name in brackets after it.

    So here I would probably put Cm11b5 (Ebm6 9).

    It's a bit cumbersome, but it helps me see what the chord actually is 'in context' and also how I got there from a BH voicing. I find this helps me apply the same idea more easily in future, in other tunes or keys.

  16. #340

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Nothing "cute" there as this is from BH dominant 7 dim scale.
    I think what fuzzthebee meant was play Bb7/dim when the actual underlying chord is Ab7. It should give some kind of Ab13#11 sound. I tried this and it sounded interesting, although played 'in isolation' my ear insisted on trying to hear it as Bb7. I'm not sure it really matters much what the associated Dim chords are, I think the ear accepts just about any Dim chord over anything as long as you don't hang on it, but move off it to go somewhere else.

    Anyway it opens up interesting possibilities that maybe there are some other cool subs of maj6 or min6 chords which work over a different chord (I mean in addition to those mentioned in the book).

  17. #341

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I'm not sure it really matters much what the associated Dim chords are, I think the ear accepts just about any Dim chord over anything as long as you don't hang on it, but move off it to go somewhere else.
    this is so true, it's like "diminished chord eh? well this guy obv knows what he's doing"

  18. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    this is so true, it's like "diminished chord eh? well this guy obv knows what he's doing"
    Wes Montgomery used to play lines of diminished chords sometimes in his chord solos, he managed to get away with it!

  19. #343

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    we could probably "justify" something like that using BH terms since between the b3, b2, and "related dim" we have every dim chord acceptable in every key with only the loose rules of related goes to one, b3 goes to 1 or 2, and b2 goes to 2

  20. #344

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    Alan calls them i dim, iv dim, and v dim but that was more of just a "why not call them..."

  21. #345

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I think what fuzzthebee meant was play Bb7/dim when the actual underlying chord is Ab7. It should give some kind of Ab13#11 sound.
    Yes, right. I didn't mean to sound condescending ( I know it can happen when we are not facing each other.)..

    ...but use of the dim on the II of the dominant scale is just what we are getting here with AK's book.

    Prior to this I would usually play the dim on the third ( sounding as a 7 b9). I was not conscious of the dim on the IV.

    Also, I like your ideas on labeling chords on the chart...I can see that will be helpful, thanks.

  22. #346

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Wes Montgomery used to play lines of diminished chords sometimes in his chord solos, he managed to get away with it!
    One thing I took away from a BH workshop class in NYC was that every chromatic tone BETWEEN the dim scale tones were usable for soloing.

    This was a part of a "synthetic scale" lecture and I can tell you that Howard Alden wasn't too cool with it when I brought it up at one of his workshops.

  23. #347

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Yup, your right. That's why I have the functional harmonics below as a full bar of II. But as for naming the chord...that's something we are still working out.


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    That voicing can legitimately be thought of as multiple functions. Dan Haerle calls them 'Magic Voicings' - http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf. With C in the bass, it can be Cm11b5, D13, Ab7#5#9, Abm6/9, CMaj7#11, Gbm7b5, E Aeolian, or B Phrygian. Fyi, Barry Greene has a great lesson on his site - he calls it the 'Secret Jazz Chord'. :-)

    regards to all

  24. #348

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    Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-cherokee-cm1-png

    Something for my finger style friends.

    OK Joe..I'll be reviewing that!

    Thank you.

  25. #349

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanZ
    That voicing can legitimately be thought of as multiple functions. Dan Haerle calls them 'Magic Voicings' - http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf. With C in the bass, it can be Cm11b5, D13, Ab7#5#9, Abm6/9, CMaj7#11, Gbm7b5, E Aeolian, or B Phrygian. Fyi, Barry Greene has a great lesson on his site - he calls it the 'Secret Jazz Chord'. :-)

    regards to all
    This doesn't seem right to me. Are you confusing some of these chords?
    Aren't we talking about the voicing starting with C, Gb, Bb and F?

    If that is the case the chords options would be Cmillb5, D7#9#5, Ab13, Ebmi6/9, Gbma7#11

    If you're referencing another chord, my apologies. Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar

  26. #350

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    my bad! I was thinking of Haerle's alternate fingering which is C, Gb, B, & E and that does provide the chords I listed. Using the C, Gb, Bb, & F fingering you're absolutely correct. Apologies if I've added to the confusion.