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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    when think whole tone scale, I hear dominant 7b5 chords. I love the 7b5 diminished scale in Alan's book, and even though only briefly mentioned, I use it more than min6 dim for altered sounds. at least recently
    Yes I need to use that one more, I haven't really explored it yet. But there's so much in Alan's book, I just found the bit near the end about playing scales in tenths, that looks interesting (Martin Taylor was talking about this in a video on another thread).

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Mention of Lydian Dominant is heresy to the church of Barry. Begone, foul agent of Berklee!

    I would use the Ebm6-dim on the Ab7
    BH uses the Ab dom scale.

    to me *all* dominant chords are diatonic in the key, unless they are used to confirm a new key by a full cadence.

    in C:

    B7: VII7, related to #IVm7b5 and bIIIdim/Idim.
    Bb7: bVII7, related to IVm.
    A7: VI7.
    Ab7: tritone sub of II7, can function as V for V or Idim. funny enough the II7/Idim complex can either function as sub-dominant or tonic. again check out the relationships with #IVm7b5.
    G7: V
    Gb7: tritone sub for I7
    F7: IV7, sub for Im or tritone sub for VII7, see Ab7, B7
    E7: III7, V for VI
    Eb7: bIII7, tritonesub for VI7
    D7: II7 or Idim, so again *two* functions in C, again check out the relationship with #IVm7b5 and Idim/bIIIdim
    Db7: bII7, tritone sub for G7
    C7: I7, V for IV

    it helps to find example tunes for every possibility. like II7 subbing for I in a tune like "but not for me" or functioning as a pure II7 in "girl from ipanema". or starting tunes like "pennie from heaven" or "can't give you anything" on the cliche #IVm7b5, IVm, etc. works with ipanema too.

    this is also why to me the concept of "chord-scale" relationships does not reflect the pre-modal practice and the term "function-scale" relationships should be introduced.
    Last edited by djg; 08-13-2017 at 06:07 AM.

  3. #363
    another wholetone thing to do is start the scale on a single note then play the scale in contrary motion while filling in the the middle note with alternating augmented tones.
    C
    Bb-D
    Ab-C-E
    Gb-Bb-D-Gb

    etc. change the middle voices as needed to make it easy enough, but are still alternating between a C aug and Bb aug

  4. #364
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    I do like a nice whole tone, but it's a bit like lime pickle - a little goes a long way (unless you are my wife)

  5. #365
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    @djg Ab dominant are you talking about improvisation or harmony?

    This thread is focussed on the harmonic system of BH's teaching.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-13-2017 at 03:14 PM.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I do like a nice whole tone, but it's a bit like lime pickle - a little goes a long way (unless you are my wife)
    I think you are making an unintentional joke here. But then again, maybe a "pickle" is something different across the pond.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    @djg Ab dominant are you talking about improvisation or harmony?

    This thread is focussed on the harmonic system of BH's teaching.
    Yes, I admit I was more asking about how Barry Harris looks at augmented triads for harmonic reasons. I do acknowledge that I said "whole tones scales" as well, and I appreciate the discussion on those.

    Pat Martino talks about the augmented triad as a parent for certain harmonic sounds which he then uses to create substitutions and voice leading. There seems to be a lot of overlap, and I was wondering if there was something similar in the Barry Harris system to the dim chord blended with the Maj6 chord, for example using aug triads and major triads blended. Does he talk about blending an aug chord with another chord to form a usable scale? Is the G7#5 a Gaug with a "borrowed note"? Does Barry address the four families of aug triads in a similar way as he addresses the three dim families?

    I inserted my question in the middle of @WILSON1 question, so I apologize for possibly distracting from that and I've been trying to wait my turn.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    @djg Ab dominant are you talking about improvisation or harmony?

    This thread is focussed on the harmonic system of BH's teaching.
    yes, sorry. i was referring to this:

    "Regarding the Ab7 in Cherokee that is what's called a non-resolving 7th chord and shouldn't be thought of in terms of resolving to Db. Non- resolving 7ths are Lydian Dominant, coming from the 4th mode of the melodic minor. That would make Eb minor scale a more appropriate note choice."

  9. #369
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    Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar

    I ask genuinely as I know the Ab dominant is the choice for soloing (it's what I use)but not sure what the choice is for the 6th dim scales. I was thinking Ebm6-dim but not 100% certain.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I ask genuinely as I know the Ab dominant is the choice for soloing (it's what I use)but not sure what the choice is for the 6th dim scales. I was thinking Ebm6-dim but not 100% certain.
    i don't know. personally i use the min6dim concept for tonic minors if at all. but since BH likes to adress dom chords as they are and is not into subbing them with minor chords, my guess would be that the min6dim concept would not be used here to create motion. but again i'm no expert on this. for me cherokee is too fast anyway to insert much movement into that one bar (i play Ab7b5 for only one bar going to Adim for one bar for the D and C in the melody)

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    i don't know. personally i use the min6dim concept for tonic minors if at all. but since BH likes to adress dom chords as they are and is not into subbing them with minor chords, my guess would be that the min6dim concept would not be used here to create motion. but again i'm no expert on this. for me cherokee is too fast anyway to insert much movement into that one bar (i play Ab7b5 for only one bar going to Adim for one bar for the D and C in the melody)
    Also Ebm6 is part of Bb maj 6-dim, Ab7 is not

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Also Ebm6 is part of Bb maj 6-dim, Ab7 is not
    are you sure? not ebdim?

  13. #373
    Going by Alan's book, I think both Christian's and djg's suggestions are ok for a non-resolving Ab7, as follows:
    Ebmin6/dim (page 19)
    Ab7b5/dim (page 4)
    Ab7/dim (page 4).

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    are you sure? not ebdim?
    Both Ebm6 and Ebdim are part of the Bbmaj6-dim. Check it out.

    Ebm6 can be thought of as an Ebdim7 chord with one tone (Bb) borrowed from the Bb6

    There's quite a few cool things buried in the scale....

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Both Ebm6 and Ebdim are part of the Bbmaj6-dim. Check it out.

    Ebm6 can be thought of as an Ebdim7 chord with one tone (Bb) borrowed from the Bb6

    There's quite a few cool things buried in the scale....
    Son of a gun...I think you've got one of those "little things" Barry keeps referring to...

    ...and that puts a min6 on the b7 of the dominant of the key...I think you mentioned that before.

    And I think you've got the mystery chord in that CODA too...

    Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-coda-d-png
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I do like a nice whole tone, but it's a bit like lime pickle - a little goes a long way (unless you are my wife)
    so you're saying your little lime pickle is not enough for your wife.

  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Going by Alan's book, I think both Christian's and djg's suggestions are ok for a non-resolving Ab7, as follows:
    Ebmin6/dim (page 19)
    Ab7b5/dim (page 4)
    Ab7/dim (page 4).
    Does anyone get "cute" with this stuff, like playing Bb7/dim on a non-resolving Ab7? The scale works so nicely, as it resembles Eb melodic minor. The chordal movement would have that Ab13#11 thing going on, plus the leading tone diminished of the following Bb chord.

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Does anyone get "cute" with this stuff, like playing Bb7/dim on a non-resolving Ab7?
    Nothing "cute" there as this is from BH dominant 7 dim scale.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    Son of a gun...I think you've got one of those "little things" Barry keeps referring to...

    ...and that puts a min6 on the b7 of the dominant of the key...I think you mentioned that before.

    And I think you've got the mystery chord in that CODA too...

    Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-coda-d-png
    fwiw, I think the chord shown as D7#5#9 should really be thought of as Cm11b5. That gives you a full bar of II, followed by a bar of V resolving to Bb6/9

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanZ View Post
    fwiw, I think the chord shown as D7#5#9 should really be thought of as Cm11b5. That gives you a full bar of II, followed by a bar of V resolving to Bb6/9
    Yup, your right. That's why I have the functional harmonics below as a full bar of II. But as for naming the chord...that's something we are still working out.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  21. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    Yup, your right. That's why I have the functional harmonics below as a full bar of II. But as for naming the chord...that's something we are still working out.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Your= you're


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  22. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    Yup, your right. That's why I have the functional harmonics below as a full bar of II. But as for naming the chord...that's something we are still working out.
    When I'm writing things like this out for my own benefit, I tend to write 2 chord names if necessary, i.e. the actual 'functioning' name and then the 'Barry Harris' chord name in brackets after it.

    So here I would probably put Cm11b5 (Ebm6 9).

    It's a bit cumbersome, but it helps me see what the chord actually is 'in context' and also how I got there from a BH voicing. I find this helps me apply the same idea more easily in future, in other tunes or keys.

  23. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    Nothing "cute" there as this is from BH dominant 7 dim scale.
    I think what fuzzthebee meant was play Bb7/dim when the actual underlying chord is Ab7. It should give some kind of Ab13#11 sound. I tried this and it sounded interesting, although played 'in isolation' my ear insisted on trying to hear it as Bb7. I'm not sure it really matters much what the associated Dim chords are, I think the ear accepts just about any Dim chord over anything as long as you don't hang on it, but move off it to go somewhere else.

    Anyway it opens up interesting possibilities that maybe there are some other cool subs of maj6 or min6 chords which work over a different chord (I mean in addition to those mentioned in the book).

  24. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I'm not sure it really matters much what the associated Dim chords are, I think the ear accepts just about any Dim chord over anything as long as you don't hang on it, but move off it to go somewhere else.
    this is so true, it's like "diminished chord eh? well this guy obv knows what he's doing"

  25. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    this is so true, it's like "diminished chord eh? well this guy obv knows what he's doing"
    Wes Montgomery used to play lines of diminished chords sometimes in his chord solos, he managed to get away with it!

  26. #386
    we could probably "justify" something like that using BH terms since between the b3, b2, and "related dim" we have every dim chord acceptable in every key with only the loose rules of related goes to one, b3 goes to 1 or 2, and b2 goes to 2

  27. #387
    Alan calls them i dim, iv dim, and v dim but that was more of just a "why not call them..."

  28. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I think what fuzzthebee meant was play Bb7/dim when the actual underlying chord is Ab7. It should give some kind of Ab13#11 sound.
    Yes, right. I didn't mean to sound condescending ( I know it can happen when we are not facing each other.)..

    ...but use of the dim on the II of the dominant scale is just what we are getting here with AK's book.

    Prior to this I would usually play the dim on the third ( sounding as a 7 b9). I was not conscious of the dim on the IV.

    Also, I like your ideas on labeling chords on the chart...I can see that will be helpful, thanks.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  29. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Wes Montgomery used to play lines of diminished chords sometimes in his chord solos, he managed to get away with it!
    One thing I took away from a BH workshop class in NYC was that every chromatic tone BETWEEN the dim scale tones were usable for soloing.

    This was a part of a "synthetic scale" lecture and I can tell you that Howard Alden wasn't too cool with it when I brought it up at one of his workshops.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  30. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    Yup, your right. That's why I have the functional harmonics below as a full bar of II. But as for naming the chord...that's something we are still working out.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    That voicing can legitimately be thought of as multiple functions. Dan Haerle calls them 'Magic Voicings' - http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf. With C in the bass, it can be Cm11b5, D13, Ab7#5#9, Abm6/9, CMaj7#11, Gbm7b5, E Aeolian, or B Phrygian. Fyi, Barry Greene has a great lesson on his site - he calls it the 'Secret Jazz Chord'. :-)

    regards to all

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