Keeping chords in the same position

billyblake · #1 08-19-2009, 01:38 PM

I'm having difficulty keeping all the chords in a progression together in the same position on the neck. I tend to only play chords with roots on the fifth or sixth strings, and I have to keep ascending or descending the neck to grab the next chords I need. For example, with a tune like "Solar," I'll start on the Cm on the 8th fret and wind up at the Cm on the 3rd fret. Part of the problem, I think, is that when I toss in chords that have roots on the 3rd or 4th string, they tend to sound thin against the bassier chords, so I just avoid them. I imagine this is a somewhat common problem, so hopefully you guys will have some good suggestions. Thanks!

derek · #2 08-19-2009, 02:30 PM

Time to learn inversions. By displacing the root from the bass and putting the 3rd (1st inversion) on the bottom, the 5th (2nd inversion), 7th (3rd inversion), you get more voicings to work with.

This knowledge will really open up the fretboard for you and give you the basic skills to do what is called voice leading. That is, you are only moving a fret or 2 away on the same string set for your changes. Gives a very pleasing and smooth movement to your progressions.

Here is a very brief explaination with basic 3 note chords.

Free Jazz Guitar Chords: 'Bach' Chord Inversions

You are gonna want to learn how to do this with all chord types (major 7, minor 7, dominant 7, minor 7b5, diminished 7) on all adjacent string sets, so strings 1234, 2345, 3456. Along with your root position 7th chords you already know with the root on 6th, 5th, & 4th strings, you would now have approximately 60 7th chords.

This doesn't count 6th chords, 9ths, etc. This is just a start, but it gets you what you are asking for. Hope that helps.

FatJeff · #3 08-19-2009, 02:52 PM

You also need a systematic way of navigating the fretboard. The CAGED system (or something similar, like the "Shapes" system espoused by Jimmy Bruno) will provide you with what you are looking for. I've been working through this book for a little bit now and it's quite good:

Amazon.com: An Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing BK/CD (Introduction to Book & CD) (0073999998580): ELLIOTT JOE: Books

vsaumarez · #4 08-19-2009, 07:11 PM

The is nothing wrong with jumping around the neck. A Cm7 in played in 8th and 3rd position actually offers a nice contrast, as the notes are so far apart. However, voice leading, substitutions and inversions are useful and important to learn. I'd master basic shapes first together with extensions such as 9th and 11th. Playing roots does mean you have limited yourself, but if you don't have a bass player, it's nice to hear the root in the chord.

Sylvie808 · #5 08-31-2009, 10:19 PM

Glad to hear you're using this: I plan to keep it much more aggressively up-to-date than has been the case in the past, but don't hesitate to let me know if you find errors or need clarifications.

Cheers!
Natalyah
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rabbit · #6 09-01-2009, 01:03 AM

billyblake,

+1 re FatJeff's endorsement of Jimmy Bruno.

I signed on last month.

His "Chord Studies" starts with m8, Dom7, Maj7 & min7b5
forms on strings 6, 4, 3 & 2. Each is used as a root for one form.

Then you practice these on strings 4, 3, 2, & 1.

Also given is a handy chart for combiningto practice/find ii-V-I's
all over the fretboard, all closely grouped.
Note that you learn forms with low notes. Later, other string
groupings are included. From here you learn to build the rest
of what you need.

I needed some of this too and was planning to do it the hard way.
The Jimmy Bruno Guitar Institute is worth trying if you can
afford it at all.

Good luck.

franco6719 · #7 09-01-2009, 03:42 AM

I find this book quite useful to help memorize closely clumped four-note II-V_I patterns with good voice leading: Jazz Guitar Chord Bible, Vol 2 by Warren Nunes (Used, New, Out-of-Print) - Alibris

franco6719 · #8 09-01-2009, 03:45 AM

I have the complete version: Vol 1 and 2. I will have to start working on this again as well. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!! exhaustion..

franco6719 · #9 09-01-2009, 04:00 AM

I understand that Jodie Foster has some good books on this. Not Jodie Fisher, JODIE FOSTER!! Alright, never mind. I'm just being a jackass for some reason.

derek · #10 09-02-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by franco6719

I understand that Jodie Foster has some good books on this. Not Jodie Fisher, JODIE FOSTER!! Alright, never mind. I'm just being a jackass for some reason.

I loved Jodie Foster in the movie Panic Room. Haven't checked out her book on chords though.

franco6719 · #11 09-03-2009, 02:35 AM

Way off the subject of music, but she is damned talented isn't she? That looks like another good one.

derek · #12 09-03-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by franco6719

Way off the subject of music, but she is damned talented isn't she? That looks like another good one.

What'd you mean OT? You brought her up.

ksjazzguitar · #13 03-09-2011, 11:39 PM

You just need to find new inversions, like they said. There is nothing wrong with jumping around a little, but ideally you shouldn't do it because you have to. But you also don't want to play the whole song in one position (it would be boring) but you should be able to.

Workout how many places you can play a Cm7, how many places you can play a Gm7, etc. You should be able to play anything in at least four positions. Then learn how to connect them together.

Peace,
Kevin

max chill · #14 03-10-2011, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

You just need to find new inversions, like they said. There is nothing wrong with jumping around a little, but ideally you shouldn't do it because you have to. But you also don't want to play the whole song in one position (it would be boring) but you should be able to.

Workout how many places you can play a Cm7, how many places you can play a Gm7, etc. You should be able to play anything in at least four positions. Then learn how to connect them together.

Peace,
Kevin

The OP died in a bathtub accident a couple years ago after his post, but thanks anyway. Better late than never.

bako · #15 03-10-2011, 08:12 AM

C7

Combinations of 2

C E / C G / C Bb / C C
E G / E Bb / E C / E E
G Bb / G C / G E / G G
Bb C / Bb E / Bb G / Bb Bb

Combinations of 3

C E G / C E Bb / C E C / C E E
C G Bb / C G C / C G E / C G G
C Bb C / C Bb E / C Bb G / C Bb Bb
C C E / C C G / C C Bb

E G Bb / E G C / E G E / E G G
E Bb C / E Bb E / E Bb G / E Bb Bb
E C E / E C G / E C Bb / E C C
E E G / E E Bb / E E C

G Bb C / G Bb E / G Bb G / G Bb Bb
G C E / G C G / G C Bb / G C C
G E G / G E Bb / G E C / G E E
G G Bb / G G C / G G E

Bb C E / Bb C G / Bb C Bb / Bb C C
Bb E G / Bb E Bb / Bb E C / Bb E E
Bb G Bb / Bb G C / Bb G E / Bb G G
Bb Bb C / Bb Bb E / Bb Bb G

4 note combinations (no doublings)

C E G Bb / C E Bb G / C G Bb E / C G E Bb / C Bb E G / C Bb G E
E G Bb C / E G C Bb / E Bb C G / E Bb G C / E C G Bb / E C Bb G
G Bb C E / G Bb E C / G C E Bb / G C E Bb / G E Bb C / G E C Bb
Bb C E G / Bb C G E / Bb E G C / Bb E C G / Bb G C E / Bb G E C

To get 4 notes with a doubling take any 3 note without a doubling already and double a note
To get 5 notes withe a doubling take any of the 4 notes and double a tone
With a 4 note structure a 6 note chord inherently has at least 2 notes doubled

Apply these note combinations to any one position. Only some will be possible but you will know that structure in that position very well.
The foundation of being able to do this spontaneously is to know chord construction and the fingerboard very well.
From there you can construct chords from available notes in a position on the fly or you can learn 4-8 chords in each area
and declare yourself finished.

In truth C7 as dominant, represents not only those 4 notes but the extensions as well.
D F# A or D F A (F generally replacing E)
You can take any of these chords and add 1 or more of these notes. (Ex. C E Bb G add D note C E Bb D G- C9
You can also replace the basic C7 chord tones with 1 or more of these notes. (Ex. C Bb E G becomes C Bb E A- C13)

The C7th chords as a function can also accept the altered notes F#/Gb---G#/Ab---Db---D# but that's a story for another day.

Here's the basic C7 notes in the 1st position

VI---V------IV-----III-----II-----I
G---Bb C---E G---Bb C---C E---G

ksjazzguitar · #16 03-10-2011, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max chill

The OP died in a bathtub accident a couple years ago after his post, but thanks anyway. Better late than never.

Sorry, it got resurrected by spam.

Peace,
Kevin

bako · #17 03-10-2011, 10:00 AM

I am impressed by the diligence of the spammers to study the archives. They are probably making great strides in their guitar playing.

Oh well, it's a good topic anyway.
Like the theme in The Wizard Of Oz
There are wondrous chords to be found in far off positions but it is good to also be aware of the resources available within reach.
("There's no place like home")

MortenFaerestrand · #18 04-22-2011, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billyblake

I'm having difficulty keeping all the chords in a progression together in the same position on the neck. I tend to only play chords with roots on the fifth or sixth strings, and I have to keep ascending or descending the neck to grab the next chords I need. For example, with a tune like "Solar," I'll start on the Cm on the 8th fret and wind up at the Cm on the 3rd fret. Part of the problem, I think, is that when I toss in chords that have roots on the 3rd or 4th string, they tend to sound thin against the bassier chords, so I just avoid them. I imagine this is a somewhat common problem, so hopefully you guys will have some good suggestions. Thanks!

That's not nessesarly a problem, it's a result of natural voice leading.. Nothing wrong with learning more inversions, but the thirds and sevenths resolves downwards, that's just the nature of things.

Robertkoa · #19 05-06-2011, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

I loved Jodie Foster in the movie Panic Room. Haven't checked out her book on chords though.

Yes- you could almost SEE and FEEL her going through her extensive library (mentally) of altered dominant chords at the suspenseful parts of the movie!

Jodie Foster is known by *many to be the architect of modern harmony and chord substitution.

* OK - not exactly many but *some.

* OK- not exactly some but a *few.

OK- just one smart a$$ guy on here who thinks he's clever and doesn't even know a lot about Jazz by his own admission............

Must have been some other Jodie.