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Yes. I stand corrected
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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04-07-2017 09:09 PM
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Don't complicate life. D#o is D# F# A C. If you call it Ebo then it's Eb Gb A C. No problem really. Just don't write anything that looks like gobbledegook. Originally Posted by JKessell
Say you've got a standard Eb blues. The 5th bar is Ab7 and then Ao, right? So do you write A C D# F# or A C Eb Gb?
If you're writing the music notation then the key signature takes care of it for you. If you're not then call it what you want. Adim7 should cover it, don't you think?
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If we are going to be 'correct' about it
Ebo7 = Eb Gb Bbb Dbb
D#o7 = D# F# A C
IRL, don't spell it the first way, please :-)Last edited by christianm77; 04-08-2017 at 11:00 PM.
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It's worse than that. If I played an Ebo, and someone asked me what notes I was playing, I'd say Eb A C F#. Move it up one and it's E Bb C# G. One more and it's F B D G# (or I might say Ab). One more and it's the one we began with - F# C Eb A.
You just say the most familiar note name - but then I don't have to take a harmony theory exam :-)
just a Philistine really...
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You'll find comprehensive answers here:
Diminished seventh chord - Wikipedia
From that page:
Last edited by DonEsteban; 04-09-2017 at 11:35 AM.
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There's often a tension between what is theoretically correct and what is easy to read.
I think most jazzers would go with the latter
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There are situations where mixing flats and sharps is standard, especially when diminished chords are acting as altered dominant sevenths. Is your D#dim7 a D7b9 without a root? In that case, I'd expect to see F#, A, C, Eb. The related diminished chords would be:
F7b9 = A, C, Eb, Gb
Ab7b9 = C, Eb, Gb, A (or Bbb)
B7b9 = D#, F#, A, C
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I'm not really into talking to myself...
(There's a nice joke about the man who said he worked hard during the week and rambled at the weekends)
... but the OP is possibly a vanisher and us lot here don't need to tell each other what we already know. However -
It also makes a difference whether the chords are ascending or descending. In G, a sharp key, it would be Am7 - A#o - Bm7 going up but Bm7 - Bbo - Am7 going down.
Heh heh :-)
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Still trying to figure out when the hell a jazz player would ever have to write out the notes in a diminished chord for somebody.
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Ok, I'll bite; how about: Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Cb, Ebb, Gbb, Bbbb?
Of course, I'd much rather write:
B, D, F, Ab
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With the thoery it is important to uncerstand what's going on behind it...
There's no single correct way to name things in theory of arts... because the logics of arts is to express many things at a time.
But in functional tonality the diminished chord has multi- functional meaning...
so the way you name these notes will represent how you understand this chord in a context...
I learnt when I did classical music as a kid lot with one of my teachers (the greatest one maybe)... I always tried to name things name..
but he told me: why would you call precisely the thing that does not have single precise meaning in the context? It's enough that we can understand and describe its multi-valent role...
And diminished chords are the most vague harmonic element in functional tonality...
Of course in some cases it's very cleary - but even VII lead chord is not so clear harmonically as it may seem...
You see... i
if you have D#dim in the key context it could be only VII of major, harmonic major, or harmonic minor.
So if it's VII of E major: D#-F#-A-C (only C is altered here in respect to E major).
In harmonic major it's the same just the general context should be that Vl of the scale is b here all the way.
the most important thing IV chords is minor in major key.
In classical it's most typical in late romatic music as plagal cadance in harmonic minor.
In pop.. for example check John Lennon's songs like Nowhere Man or In My Life...
In harmonic minor it will be E harmonic minor
So it makes
D#(raise VII of E minor, which makes it harmonic minor) - F# (natural II of E minor) - A (natural IV of E minor) - C (natural C of E minor).
The chord is very typical in classical music... this is where the name of harmonic minor comes from: they raise VII to increase harmonic tension. (and that's the difference with melodic monor where there raise also VII to make melodic intervals more balanced).
Please, do not mix these explanations with applications of these modes in jazz theory!
This is just to show how you could derive note names from the context...
If you take it as an inversion of B#dim in C# harmonic minor.. you'll have D#(II natural)-F#(IVnatural)- A (VI natural) - B# (VII raised).. so you see the qualities of the scale steps in C# minor are the same as in E harmonic minor...
If it makes sense to do that or not... if you analyze Schubert's sonata... then at least it makes sense to understand this, because this is important...
The dim chords are often used during modulation so in this case it will look like it is in two keys simultaneously and any naming will be 'wrong'))) - so it depends on you - you choose the context (after all we - or our hearing - alwayse choose the context... theory does not imply anything we should follow if our ears do not confirm it).
In jazz context... it can be different...
diminished may have mush more local function role -not so much significant for the whole song...
passing chord for example.. in this case I would call notes simplest way possible regarding voice-leading and context
Like Dmaj7 - D#dim - Em7 .. in D major... It's D#-F#-A-C... just becaus ebasically it D7 with ascending bass line going to E...
So it depends..
I always say to myself: take theory as creatively as you would take music...
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That's right! The gift certificate is in the mail. Originally Posted by jasaco
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Double flats, of course, are indispensable when composing in Cb major - which I do all the time, I'll have you know :-)
a capo's pretty handy too...
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Thinking in the key of B is also pretty handy!
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The ambiguity of voicings: 4 notes, 6 possible chords
C-F-G-Db
Dm6/9
Eb 13/9
A#9b13
Gm7b5 (missing the 3rd)
Csusb9
DbM7#11
2 Chord scales that cut through all 6 chords: D dorian or D melodic minor
Generally:
IM6= vim7, IVM9 and II9sus4
im7= bIIIM6, bVIM9, IV9sus4
I7b9= bIII7b9, bV9b9, VI7b9, bIIdim, IIIdim, Vdim, bVIIdim
I13= vm6/9, bVIIM7b5
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The ambiguity of voicings: 4 notes, 6 possible chords
C-F-G-Db
Dm6/9 (How do you create this chord without the 6 (B) or the 9 (E)?)
Eb 13/9
A#9b13
Gm7b5 (missing the 3rd) (Shouldn't you also name the 11 (C)?)
Csusb9
DbM7#11
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Yikes. It should be a Bbm6/9. Typo. Sorry about that. And Bb dorian/melodic minor. Originally Posted by jasaco
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Talk about the ambiguity of chord spelling; here's a beaut.
What do you think of that last chord.
This really isn't off topic. Nothing happens in music in a vacuum and this is a perfect example.
Here's a hint...this verse is headed to C major.
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If it goes to C major, I would name that chord G7b5. Especially because before that there is a D major. I would name that II of C, ok its not minor, but we all know that the writer can alter any chord at his/her will...
G=base
D=5th
F=7th
C#=Db=b5
no third
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soooooo...............close........! Originally Posted by mrblues
Remember the chart does not have a typo. The last measure carries an F# and the composer is calling the chord Fm6(#5).
You have to assume the chord has an F# and you would be thinking G maj 7 b5.
There is nothing vague about the correct chord; it has a third.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
From just seeing and hearing that snippet, I'd have called it a Dd(b9)/F or sumthin'
(There's no G in there btw @mrblues, it's a G#)
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Take a look at the functional harmonics given.
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Now this IS pretty ..but still doesn't give us the correct chord name...
XX7999 , XX7979 , XX7779 , X8X799
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The typo is the F in the half note chord..it should read F natural.
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Whatever, it is Jazz, nothing is played as written. Seriously, my point was, it doesn't really matter what the name is. We kind of know it should be dominant chord. Previous chords fit to A major scale, so dominant should be some kind of E. In Jazz pet upside down way, where it does not matter where you're coming from, but is where you are going to, and you say it goes to C (ir Cm, I forgot) it should be some kind of G dominant, or usual sub, like Bb, G#, or C# (note, all # ;-) ) even E still applies since A is a sub for C.
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