Modern Harmony

**fasstrack** · 09-13-2016, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Pre-rock 20th century song writers by and large, with some exceptions, were classically trained composers.

A lot of the versions we play as jazz musicians are somewhat simplified in comparison to the original sheet music, especially as a lot of jazz musicians changes playing technique centres around ii-V's and ii-V-I's.

I had a college professor (a pain in the ass and s%%^y grader, but I digress) who got me thinking as he pointed out that the original songs were often 'corrupted' when jazzers jumped on the bebop bandwagon. He demonstrated one song---wish I could remember which one---allowing as how it was really more 'impressionistic'---simple and sans II Vs. I pooh poohed it in my head then, fancying myself a hip young bebopper.

But, like the story Mark Twain was fond of telling about 'having thought my father a complete idiot at 15, by 20 I was amazed by what he had learned', I came to realize the old geezer was probably right. Bebop musicians, though great virtuosos, often II Ved things to death and sometimes lost the purity/simplicity of the original songs. Case in point: Dizzy's arrangement of I Can't Get Started, with its descending II Vs. Myself, I dread when they play those changes, the originals breathe so much better than that harmonic straight-jacket. And in my '20s, back in the bronze age, I harmonized the bridge of You Do Something To Me with II Vs---thinking I was a slick motherf&&&a. I wasn't, and beware 'cleverness'. Porter's chords voice lead so beautifully with 3rds in the bass, etc. Glad I came to my senses on that one. I also once 'cleverized' My Ship. 'Originality' can be greatly overrated when not balanced by musical sense and craft.

Fortunately for me I grew out of that stage. My personal preference, having matured somewhat, is for chords (or notes) with some daylight between them. To my ears Tadd Dameron was more like the latter than the former, a melodic writer with good spatial qualities and attractive harmonies not going anywhere in a hurry.

These days writers like Tom Harrell are using chords (often triads) that don't resolve in the old II V fashion. He gives us a lot to think about, lots of possibilities playing his tunes. Look into a '70s song of his, Open Air, and you will get a textbook example of how to use triads against a static bass in a jazz piece. (First 2 in 3/4: one measure each Ab Maj 7 Gb/Ab G/Ab Db Maj 7---the last chord a nice surprise).

(Comes down from soapbox, steps in dogs%^t)...

**fasstrack** · 09-13-2016, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by JensL

Jens

Hey Jens: We've met in Den Haag. At Pavlov or some other joint. First heard your name through Bob Wijnen. Just hit me now. Hope you are well, buddy...

**jordanklemons** · 09-16-2016, 08:05 PM

I'm not sure if this is way off topic from the OP eh, as you seemed to be asking about a specific progression, but also just about modern jazz harmony in general. This is more a response to the 'in general' aspect... and to the question that's been talked about as to whether it's possible/realistic/a good or bad idea to start writing from the harmony first and let the melody follow. Pre-emptive apology if this takes the thread way off topic.

So I just posted this preview of my upcoming album in the showcase section. And then it dawned on me that, while it doesn't really belong here, it might be worth posting to point out a couple of areas where I did write from the harmony first. If nothing else, just to give an idea of the different overall aesthetic of a piece written harmony first vs. melody first.

So a good amount of the clips here are actually showcasing some solos and improv sections... but aside from those.

0:00 - The tune here was actually written the way I historically wrote most of my tunes... as chord melodies on the guitar. I often write the melody and the harmony simultaneously. Sometimes I just hear what I want and it comes out as a complete entity, other times I hear the first part, and then it becomes sort of a chord melody experiment/trial and error... trying different ideas until I find the one that rings true. In the past I would then write out the melody and harmony in lead sheet style for a trio. With this group, I had to really break everything down so I could give the proper harmonic structures to the piano and so I could arrange the horn section in a way that made the entire group sound like a singular entity.

more blowing stuff

1:16 - This is a harmony lead tune. It began at the piano working on my upper structure triad harmonies and actually doing some ear training. I couldn't get over the beauty of this one chord (which is the first chord in the tune on the piano). I just kept playing it over and over until it settled into this ostinato rhythmic figure. Then the melody just presented itself. Once I was into the middle of the tune, it started to dance back and forth between being led by the harmony (where I'd hear specific changes I wanted, and the melody followed) and being led by the melody (where the pre-existing melodic material clearly wanted to go a certain way, and I yielded to that with no concern for what the harmony would be until after I finished writing that part of the melody. Then I filled in the harmony). So really I used both approaches here. But the overall process was mainly built on harmonic led.. and the clip being heard is the opening of the tune, so it's all harmonic led.

more blowing stuff

2:27 - This is the shout chorus for one of my tunes. It was written harmony first. I took the chords from the original A section and wrote a new melodic idea (based on the original motif) over the chords.

3:00 - Harmony led. I wrote the guitar part first. Originally, that's all there was to this section. I was going to just use it as another blowing section. Then I changed my mind and decided I wanted to write a melody. That was composed well after the fact to weave through the chord changes.

Whether or not others would consider me a good songwriter or not is of course up for subjective debate. I just wanted to present some real world examples of songs that I can say first hand were composed harmony first. Which is not true for the entire record... but is definitely one of the ways I like to work. For now.

**jordanklemons** · 09-16-2016, 09:00 PM

Maybe I can make a pre-emptive request to go along with the apology. If anyone wants to make any comments on the video or the tunes that are off topic from modern harmony... can you do so in the showcase thread where I posted this. Just to keep this thread from getting crazy derailed. Let's keep this one on the modern harmony topic.
Thanks guys

**EJGuitar** · 09-30-2016, 12:52 AM

imo. jazz-wise. adding non harmonic chromatic tone is not enough to make it modern (post 50s). gotta be more modal, less tertiary, or linear/embellished in the progression. im taking reference from yellowjackets or wayne shorter in mid 60s.

**fasstrack** · 09-30-2016, 07:58 AM

It occurs to me that for myself, I ain't all that modern and 'hip', and don't really care to be. It's not what I hear. I like to bring out the song, even soloing. I've said it many times: a real melodic sense is as wonderful as it is rare. Other approaches are just as valid, and I will always take a peek at whatever someone good is doing, but the way of melody/rhythm 1st is my way ('And now..the end is near'..

).

When I think about harmony it certainly is not an afterthought (please see my thoughts and examples in chord progressions, etc. on these pages). My lead sheets are very detailed and thought out. 'Busy' changes are good on ballads, where the listeners' ear has time to process nice things like contrary motion. The faster they go by, the harder to retain, so...

When it comes to playing, though, I like something the great Lester Young reportedly said:

'I never let the changes bother what I play'...

**mokapot** · 09-30-2016, 09:18 AM

I don't see how using some tunes chords as an inspiration could take away from the sense of melody if we do realize the importance of it. Who wouldn't change the original chords to fit the melody then if you have something that doesn't fit the chords? Why can't it be harmony first (harmony as an inspiration) and then a melody comes to transform it into something completely different, or in some cases does nothing to the original changes?
Just some thoughts because I'm curious about the way others compose

**fasstrack** · 09-30-2016, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by mokapot

I don't see how using some tunes chords as an inspiration could take away from the sense of melody if we do realize the importance of it. Who wouldn't change the original chords to fit the melody then if you have something that doesn't fit the chords? Why can't it be harmony first (harmony as an inspiration) and then a melody comes to transform it into something completely different, or in some cases does nothing to the original changes?
Just some thoughts because I'm curious about the way others compose

From the song you posted, you're fine---and better.

At the risk of boringly repeating myself:

I write from the title, usually suggested by a personal experience. Having said that, I'm careful as sometimes lyricist to 'include in' the potential listeners' experiences, so that they can relate too. This does not mean 'dumbing down', but finding something universal to say within my story. A wise songwriter, Jimmy Norman, that I co-wrote 1 song with taught me that, b/c my melodies and lyrics had 'inside jokes', and what's the point if I'm the only one getting them?

Back to the title:

Usually the 1st melodic strain will infer itself per that title. Often I imagine a lyric to go with the title to make it easier to write the rest, now based on both title and imagined lyric.

Usually, what occurs rhythmically will become self-evident after these 'bricks' are in place. Changes, same thing.

I've dabbled in 'musical portraiture': I had 1 song (not my best) dedicated to Flo Kennedy, a progressive activist and attorney I had become friends with. I wanted the song (The River Flo) to indicate what was happening in the US in the '60s, when Ms. Kennedy was thriving: Vietnam war, protests, etc. So at the coda I had everyone play free, no tempo, on a sustained A7 chord.

Anyways, like that.

Your song is beautiful, man...

Joel

**mokapot** · 09-30-2016, 09:57 AM

You must have meant Jordan Klemons, I'm just a curious guy entering the discussion of composing

interesting that you think about the title first because to me its the last thing to think about!

**fasstrack** · 09-30-2016, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by mokapot

You must have meant Jordan Klemons, I'm just a curious guy entering the discussion of composing

interesting that you think about the title first because to me its the last thing to think about!

No, but I did confuse you with a guy with a similar handle who posted a song a liked. Unless, in my dotage, I'm confused and you are that guy. (It was a ballad).

I already had a friendly disagreement (long since resolved) with Jordan, whose writing I also like...

**jordanklemons** · 09-30-2016, 02:45 PM

Was it a disagreement? I just thought we were chattin... my b. Glad we both thought it was friendly at least!

**fasstrack** · 09-30-2016, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

Was it a disagreement? I just thought we were chattin... my b. Glad we both thought it was friendly at least!

It started out that way, but we made friends real fast.

You gotta understand one thing, Jordan:

I'm 62, not all that computer-savvy, and came to the Internet later in life than many guys here did. The subtleties of 'actual' communication don't really exist in the same way in the digital kind (for a guy like me). I mean I love to write and read and I think I express myself on the written page pretty well---BUT I like lookin' the person I'm talking to in the eye more.

Know what I mean?

**edh** · 10-01-2016, 02:38 AM

62!!, Hell you're a youngster.

**fasstrack** · 10-01-2016, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by edh

62!!, Hell you're a youngster.

**jsaras** · 12-21-2016, 10:16 AM

The genius of the Equal Interval System (EIS) is that it recognizes that there are only six possible root movements and that they are all equally viable (proven mathematically) and that the overtone series provides the technique for voiceleading the various intervals above the roots horizontally. This provides the freedom to write any progression you want correctly without being locked into traditional key centers, unless you want to.

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