The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    So we have this perception (or at least I do) that rhythm guitar was a swing era thing, but it interests me how long the rhythm guitar thing stayed in jazz.

    Often this was done in combinations with piano, guitar and bass which was AFAIK as common a combination for a piano trio as the piano, bass, drums line up usually seen today.

    In the case of the post war rhythm players, I guess it was usually when there wasn't drums, but here are some of my favourite bop and post bop era rhythm guitarists:



    I love Jim builds from smooth fours and brings in deft little rhythmic pushes and riffs on the piano solo.

    Tal Farlow is a rhythm guitar BEAST. Check him out at 2:29 - sounds like a snare drum.



    Kind of hard to hear Chuck Wayne here - but he's definitely playing rhythm

    <br>


    Russell Malone is practically playing la pompe here. It's pretty old school, actually...

    <br>


    In terms of playing rhythm, a problem I often come across is that people like the guitar to be too loud - to me the thing that I really like about these example is that they are primarily percussive - the pitch of the guitar isn't really that important.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Ah, Benny Green. Is there ever a note he didn't play?

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Ah, Benny Green. Is there ever a note he didn't play?
    He should invent some new ones and play those.

  5. #4

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    its a way to make the guitar work more like the bass and the drums and less like the piano (though stride piano styles do the same sort of job)

    you do it when you want to make a direct and forceful contribution to propulsion - when you want to help push things along

    i'm very glad there's a great way to do that with the guitar

    jim hall is probably my favourite exponent (e.g. on the duos with bill evans and on 'jazz guitar')

    but i dig herb ellis and tal farlow too

    so i do think the style made it very much into the post freddie green era

    when wes dips into it it always sounds just incredible (he's bound to be the best at it in the end)

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    its a way to make the guitar work more like the bass and the drums and less like the piano (though stride piano styles do the same sort of job)

    you do it when you want to make a direct and forceful contribution to propulsion - when you want to help push things along

    i'm very glad there's a great way to do that with the guitar

    jim hall is probably my favourite exponent (e.g. on the duos with bill evans and on 'jazz guitar')

    but i dig herb ellis and tal farlow too

    so i do think the style made it very much into the post freddie green era

    when wes dips into it it always sounds just incredible (he's bound to be the best at it in the end)
    Moar clips pls

  7. #6

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    I know this isn't jazz but this is my inspiration lately

  8. #7

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    At 1:08 the name George Van Epps emits from Nile Rodgers' mouth.



    Playing chords on guitar is so tactile & visceral a satisfaction that
    I don't think of 'rhythm guitar' as a "wholly separate category"
    except in classic styles where it is necessarily exaggerated.
    I say this with respect to christanm77, the OP here.

  9. #8

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    'Monkey Man'



    Of course, not jazz, but not entirely off topic.
    A classic example of what K.Richards means when he's spoken of
    not separating lead & rhythm guitar in the Stones' book.
    Last edited by rabbit; 05-31-2016 at 12:31 AM.

  10. #9

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    While I dig Keef (and grew up with that record) and D'Angelo I have to say I really wanted to talk about rhythm guitar after the bebop revolution in jazz.

    Anyway with regards to what Keef said, he agrees perhaps with Bruce Foreman on the subject of an integrated lead/rhythm style (something I work towards myself) :-)

    There is an ancestral link between jazz and rock of course, and separated rhythm/lead roles were present in swing music (just think of the Hot Club) as well as rock'n'roll (presumably there's a country/western swing link in there too). In jazz as in rock'n'roll, the lead instrument was often the electric. Here are some examples of mainstream post-war jazz records with a separate dedicated rhythm guitarist:





    But these records are kind of harking back to the swing era, and in the case of Mary Osborne, I hear a lot of proto-rock and proto-surf...

    I find it interesting when rhythm guitar is used in a more bop context, given how much freer the beat is in that music.

  11. #10

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    christianm77,

    Really enjoyed the clips, Mary Osborne esp. but Barney Kessel isn't
    coming thru to the USA.

    Sorry, but I'm turning up a little tone-deaf to your motif so I'll listen & learn for
    a while on this thread. Thanks.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    christianm77,

    Really enjoyed the clips, Mary Osborne esp. but Barney Kessel isn't
    coming thru to the USA.

    Sorry, but I'm turning up a little tone-deaf to your motif so I'll listen & learn for
    a while on this thread. Thanks.
    TBH I don't think anyone is terribly interested in my motif, so we may as well just post cool tracks :-)

    Glad you enjoyed the Mary Osborne - I think she's a bit underappreciated.

  13. #12

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    Bill Jennings is worth a mention here. He is perhaps more familiar to jump blues players and fans of organ combos (-here he is with Jack McDuff). He had a strong sense of groove


  14. #13

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    Can't resist adding this, as it is a marvelous example of how focusing on rhythm can make simple lines soar. (Dig the use of "Let's Fall In Love" in the vibes solo.)


  15. #14

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    So are we talking "modern" as in what year it is, as opposed to style?

    For a truly modern approach, I think about a lot of what Matt Stevens does with Christian Scott...which is just as based in rock riffing as it is in post bop jazz harmony.

  16. #15

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    What about Paul Bollenbeck(sp?), he's a bad ass rhythm guy. Or is it that as jazz changed from dance music(swing) to concert music the rhythm guitar role becomes much more evident in other genres especially the danceable ones?????

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    So are we talking "modern" as in what year it is, as opposed to style?

    For a truly modern approach, I think about a lot of what Matt Stevens does with Christian Scott...which is just as based in rock riffing as it is in post bop jazz harmony.
    Well post swing era jazz really. People play whatever they want these days.

  18. #17

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    Russel Malone at times is almost playing Funk Guitar ( which is ironically not necessarily the Funkiest harmonic Rhythm ) at some points when he comps in that clip I really like the varied approach Solo he does ..long winding through the changes and he throws some R&B type licks in there..I like that he is lower in the mix and not struggling to make the Tempo.

    Over a fast Tempo like that I would be playing a lot of Rhythms in Halftime with short and long values rather than chop it up.You Guys would not call it 'Jazz' comping probably - although I can hear it with the Keys Player doing the same thing...


    But that's coming from a different perspective ..however I noticed a few instances where Wes actually played some expanded R&B type stuff - and there is no Archetype for this..the Harmonic Rhythms can dictate it and semi fingerstyle or pick and fingers syncopated Rhythms are fertile fresh territory.



    Here's some great Harmonically Expanded R&B from Wes Montgomery...

    Notice at about 2:05 the Rhythm Part he does and the ultra cool time feel and effective voicings he uses.

    Now someone like me I would and as you will see do Harmonic Rhythms like this not as a break but through out a Tune ..not EXACTLY like this - I ' m a writer not a ' Transcriber'.

    I also don't mind being challenged on any points musically- you just can't pick the Time and Place..I prefer Pro Tracks not incomplete or Karaoke Guitar or Phone Videos ..for my stuff so I have to program etc etc.


    Anyway much like with Hendrix most of the Rockers who were influenced by him ignored the R&B aspects IMO and maybe they did that with Wes as well ..
    With Benson of course and Kenny Burrel-I do - but I don't hear many R&B influenced Jazz Guitarists ( don't really need to ).

    Vernon Reid for example was in a Group called 'Material ' with Singer Nona Hendrix and he did some really cool stuff on Rhythm Guitar [ not distorted] more' Urban' but later Played more straight up Rock and Roll with Living Color .

    Also I remember where the Producers who did the stuff with the strings got criticized - I think it was Creed Taylor- perhaps that was the beginning of 'smooth jazz' .

    But ironically' Road Song ' could have probably been a Soul Jazz hit if they Roughed it up instead of smoothed it out..That's my fortè.
    Lol.

    I mean we had Wilson Picket/ Aretha Franklin/ Marvin Gaye with the R&B masterpiece ' Heard it Through the Grapevine' , Hendrix, etc - so CTI thought they needed to 'smooth it out' for that Audience ?

    Anyway a cool tune and GREAT Modern Rhythm Guitar from Wes Montgomery.

    Next - the' Rolling Stones Fusion Era' which unfortunately lasted only one song -




    You can hear a great groove at about 3 minutes in -( Stones Killer Rhythm Section )and super cool Jazzy Comping and Color by I assume Keith Richards and wunderkind Mick Taylor Solo and some Sax Player named Sonny ..lol.

    Someone once said the Recording was Sonny Rollins ...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-26-2017 at 08:34 PM.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa

    You can hear a great groove at about 3 minutes in -( Stones Killer Rhythm Section )and super cool Jazzy Comping and Color by I assume Keith Richards and wunderkind Mick Taylor Solo and some Sax Player named Sonny ..lol.
    Some sax player named Bobby Keys, best Stones jam ever.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So we have this perception (or at least I do) that rhythm guitar was a swing era thing, but it interests me how long the rhythm guitar thing stayed in jazz.

    Often this was done in combinations with piano, guitar and bass which was AFAIK as common a combination for a piano trio as the piano, bass, drums line up usually seen today.

    In the case of the post war rhythm players, I guess it was usually when there wasn't drums, but here are some of my favourite bop and post bop era rhythm guitarists:

    <br>


    I love Jim builds from smooth fours and brings in deft little rhythmic pushes and riffs on the piano solo.

    Tal Farlow is a rhythm guitar BEAST. Check him out at 2:29 - sounds like a snare drum.



    Kind of hard to hear Chuck Wayne here - but he's definitely playing rhythm

    <br>


    Russell Malone is practically playing la pompe here. It's pretty old school, actually...

    <br>


    In terms of playing rhythm, a problem I often come across is that people like the guitar to be too loud - to me the thing that I really like about these example is that they are primarily percussive - the pitch of the guitar isn't really that important.
    Rhythm guitar ('modern', old-school---whatever) is still the foundation---no getting around it. Anyone with ears can hear who's mastered it and who hasn't. Those who have swing more and have a better time feel in their solos, I firmly believe. Those who haven't...

    Tal was a curiosity to me: though a great, inventive soloist he also rushed (after the 'comeback' madly) soloing. But his 4 on the floor was smooth as silk and never budged. Go figure.

    Chuck Wayne was a mentor, teacher and early influence. In the days of that Shearing vid he did, I think, some of his most swinging playing, soloing and accompanying. Later on certain 'problems' got in the way and he sort of lost it rhythmically, especially soloing. But as a guitarist he's IMO one of the all-time greats (BTW, he was a fine arranger and MD for Tony Bennett for some years). To me when it comes to technique and technical innovation at the top of the guitar Mount Rushmore their ought to be three faces: George Van Eps, Johnny Smith and Chuck Wayne.

    Jim Hall was a great rhythm player (as was Barry Galbraith, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel).

    Russell IS 'old-school' (like me LOL). Known him for years and know his playing pretty well. He knows the tunes and has good foundation skills----like rhythm guitar.

    No one has name-checked James Chirillo. He's an ace rhythm player who has made a living playing rhythm guitar and backing singers including Vic Damone, Marilyn Maye and other pros (as well as a wise and blues-savvy soloist, fine banjoist, repertoire man---including the 'trad' stuff, reader, and IMO world-class arranger/composer. We both studied with Bill Finegan and John Carisi and James really absorbed the stuff, especially from Bill. He can do it all in writing).

    But Christian: Where's the Godfather? Where's FREDDIE GREEN? Without his shoulders...
    Last edited by fasstrack; 10-24-2017 at 07:29 AM.

  21. #20

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    Also, if were talking rock, funk, pop or R&B---'straight 8th note' rhythm, its hard to ignore the contributions of Buzz Feiten, ALL the James Brown guitarists, from Bobby Byrd on down, Steve Cropper, Cornell Dupree----for openers.

    Though I've never heard him myself (unless he's playing with GB on Breezin'?) I'm also told by folks in the know that Bobby Womack (composer of Breezin', etc.) is a hell of a rhythm player...

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by fasstrack
    Rhythm guitar ('modern', old-school---whatever) is still the foundation---no getting around it. Anyone with ears can hear who's mastered it and who hasn't. Those who have swing more and have a better time feel in their solos, I firmly believe. Those who haven't...

    Tal was a curiosity to me: though a great, inventive soloist he also rushed (after the 'comeback' madly) soloing. But his 4 on the floor was smooth as silk and never budged. Go figure.

    Jim Hall was a great rhythm player (as was Barry Galbraith, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel).

    Russell IS 'old-school' (like me LOL). Known him for years and know his playing pretty well. He knows the tunes and has good foundation skills----like rhythm guitar.

    But Christian: Where's the Godfather? Where's FREDDIE GREEN? Without his shoulders...
    I was talking specifically about post-war rhythm guitarists and I think of Freddie as not being 'modern jazz' but as his post war style changed - it is perhaps sensible to talk about Freddie Green playing rhythm guitar in a modern jazz context.

    BTW Chirillo's one note chord style is modelled on FG's post war style. FG's pre war style seems to be more 'chordy' and 'chunky' in a way that people might think was more like Django (basically pre war rhythm guitar styles are often thought of as sounding 'gypsy jazz.') It's easiest to hear difference by comparing the '50s recordings to the '30s Savory collection recordings in which FG's playing can be heard clearly.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by fasstrack
    Also, if were talking rock, funk, pop or R&B---'straight 8th note' rhythm, its hard to ignore the contributions of Buzz Feiten, ALL the James Brown guitarists, from Bobby Byrd on down, Steve Cropper, Cornell Dupree----for openers.

    Though I've never heard him myself (unless he's playing with GB on Breezin'?) I'm also told by folks in the know that Bobby Womack (composer of Breezin', etc.) is a hell of a rhythm player...
    I wasn't, but thread drift is a thing... So yeah, all of the above!

  24. #23

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    I suppose my idea with the thread was to highlight that straight fours is a specific type of accompaniment used in modern jazz as well as trad and big band stuff, and that there is a specific way of playing the straight four feel that lends itself to bebop rather than the more chunky feel of pre-war jazz. The players I identify exemplify this to me.

    I think people think of swing feel as being fundamentally different from other grooves in that it is non repeating and 'interactive' and while this can be the case, it can also be locked in and pattern based too (we don't need to look further than the Blue Note era to see examples of this) with variations of the swing groove within that category.

    Furthermore the flipside is also true - Samba and Bossa for instance can be more broken up and interactive. It just depends on the context, the music and how the band is playing.

    One question that comes up is whether or not we use rhythm guitar purely as a replacement for drums (i.e. in a piano/guitar/bass line up) or as a complementing sound to drums. My feeling is straight fours + drums + bass is very much a pre-war thing, but the George Shearing example has it being done in a bop context.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I was talking specifically about post-war rhythm guitarists and I think of Freddie as not being 'modern jazz' but as his post war style changed - it is perhaps sensible to talk about Freddie Green playing rhythm guitar in a modern jazz context.

    BTW Chirillo's one note chord style is modelled on FG's post war style. FG's pre war style seems to be more 'chordy' and 'chunky' in a way that people might think was more like Django (basically pre war rhythm guitar styles are often thought of as sounding 'gypsy jazz.') It's easiest to hear difference by comparing the '50s recordings to the '30s Savory collection recordings in which FG's playing can be heard clearly.
    I think James 'got' Freddie pretty well. He's the one who explained to me that FG played one-note chords as a 'tenor' counter-line and not just rhythm support. That helped me, b/c I had gotten the 3-note bass string thing from Barry Galbraith, who (I assumed) got it from Freddie. After all, Gerry Mulligan called him 'the Freddie Green of the Thornhill rhythm section (liner notes by Mulligan---Birth of the Cool). I guess Barry felt 3 notes are 'fatter'. I sort of agree, and have used the approach myself for years. It blends with the bass and hi-hat beautifully. (I love doing it behind a bass solo when the bass player stays to the beat---a perfect marriage). Works for me, anyway.

    James teaches for JALC, writes charts for them and has vids out on this very subject. He's studied it deeply and if there's such a thing as an 'authority' I'd go with him. But that's b/c I know James for almost 40 years. I don't mean to imply that their aren't others as knowledgeable---quite the contrary: I hope there are many others. The more, the merrier.

    Interesting points about Mr. Green's rhythm 'evolution'. I'll have to listen and look into it. Good lookin' out, matey...

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    ...and that there is a specific way of playing the straight four feel that lends itself to bebop rather than the more chunky feel of pre-war jazz.
    Some bebop musicians will give you 'knife eyes' if you do it---especially pianists. They felt it wasn't 'hip' and was 'raining on their parade'. Not all: I talked with Barry Harris, and he likes it and feels it's supportive. Barry plays on the beat so well that it DOES make sense that a rhythm guitar would underline and support his soloing. I've played with Barry many times as a student in the '80s, at jam sessions and was in his big band at the storied Jazz Cultural Theater. He loves guitar, period, says it's the 'best instrument' (and, as we know, is 'right proud' of Pasquale Grasso---who came to him with alto-playing brother Luigi at 14)---but really likes good rhythm guitar, behind him or generally.

    Jimmy Raney (as I've said before, an important personal mentor) said once that he played rhythm guitar (with Woody Herman, later with Norvo) b/c it was 'traditional' (read: expected in gigging bands). He said he didn't like it himself behind him, and that the rhythm guitarist became a 'third wheel' in bebop b/c he felt it was more a 'chamber' type playing---a (rhythmic) 'counterpoint of things'.

    I see his point: 'when in Rome...', and it's also a classic example of 'informed opinion(s)'---listen to him w/Norvo (dunno if he ever recorded with Woody). He replaced Tal Farlow and those recordings show very well how good a rhythm player he was. So if he later chose to forego it, he had every right---unlike people who put down whatever b/c of their own ignorance...