Real Book Question:transposing?

flatfive · #1 06-30-2009, 03:14 PM

Often, when I am researching a new tune, I notice that the song in question has been transposed when I hear the recordings. The Real Book will have it written in one key and then I hear it in other keys.

I guess this surprised me a little bit. I wrongly assumed that most guys on jazz gigs would have similar charts. I've also assumed that most people probably learned a tune from a real book or other fake chart, and that the keys for standards were, well, standard. Now, I am hearing that transposing is quite common on the bandstand.

My question is: do you learn a song in a particular key and stick with it, or do you find that you are required to transpose on a live gig, based on the desire of the leader?

derek · #2 06-30-2009, 03:36 PM

Sometimes tunes are in horn friendly keys in the RB, and sometimes not. There have been a number of times I have had to play a tune I know in a different key. Takes me a quick sec to transpose, but pros should be able to do on the fly. I am not there yet.

JohnW400 · #3 06-30-2009, 03:41 PM

Most of the tunes in the RB list their source. Transposition happen a lot with singers. Sometimes horn players.

Not much you can do about a singer. With a horn player, though, If they've trasposed it to a easier horn key, then I like to break their chops

After all, how many RB tunes are in guitar friendly keys like A or E? Most are in Bb, Eb etc. I had to learn how to play in key's like Db, Gb ect, so should they

mr. beaumont · #4 06-30-2009, 05:10 PM

there's definitely some flaws in the real book's key choices--autumn leaves is probably one of the most glaring (however, i do play it in Em whn i do it solo, like having all the open strings...but i digress) for the most part, i find that many of the tunes in the RB are in pretty commonly "jammed on" keys...

this is a fine example of why learning tunes in all keys is great practice and soewhat important. wait till you meet that singer who just loves Gb!

Jazzarian · #5 06-30-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

this is a fine example of why learning tunes in all keys is great practice and soewhat important. wait till you meet that singer who just loves Gb!

You can always transpose that to F#.

FatJeff · #6 06-30-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzarian

You can always transpose that to F#.

Actually, that is an interesting question. Would that technically be considered transposition? I'm thinking it would be, since the note names are different (just enharmonic to each other).

Jazzarian · #7 06-30-2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Actually, that is an interesting question. Would that technically be considered transposition? I'm thinking it would be, since the note names are different (just enharmonic to each other).

Goood question, I'd venture to say not.

I'm much better envisioning the Circle of 5ths going clockwise.

Jazzarian · #8 06-30-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

this is a fine example of why learning tunes in all keys is great practice and soewhat important. wait till you meet that singer who just loves Gb!

Couldn't ya just kick the singer in the ass and tell he/she to kick it up or down a half step?

I suspect horn players that also sing tend to like Bb and Eb. Self centered bunch R they.

Sordello · #9 06-30-2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

... wait till you meet that singer who just loves Gb!

It's a pity singers aren't like turntables: speed up the tempo and the pitch rises...

Stackabones · #10 06-30-2009, 11:09 PM

This is one of the few forums where players actually play with singers. Man, on the other jazz boards, it seems like they can't stand it or that they barely tolerate it.

Horn guys talk a big game about playing tunes in all keys, but they really pout when something outside of three flats is called. Never call sharp keys or you'll be lynched.

Be a singer or be a bandleader and call any key you want.

As an aside, some of the RB changes are real dogs for singers. They completely bury the melody and obscure the harmonic line in some attempt at theory class hipness. Though plenty of those RB changes help the soloist hide his clams.

mr. beaumont · #11 07-01-2009, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzarian

Couldn't ya just kick the singer in the ass and tell he/she to kick it up or down a half step?

I suspect horn players that also sing tend to like Bb and Eb. Self centered bunch R they.

well, there's always that idea of, what they don't know won't hurt 'em.

i played with a singer once who swore up and down she sang "body and soul" better in Gb (F#) truth was, she sounded like crap on the low notes in Gb (my opinion)

anyway, we're gigging, and the piano player is obviously thinking the same thing, because she calls "body and soul" and he sticks up one finger to the group--1 sharp, G major.

needless to say, she sounded better, and never knew any better.

flatfive · #12 07-01-2009, 02:30 AM

Enlightening conversation for me. I've learned that, a--singers choose their key and the band better have it together, b--horn players and guitar players get along fine as long as we play in Eb and Bb, and--I'm gonna put my own guitar centric band together!

randalljazz · #13 07-01-2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

there's definitely some flaws in the real book's key choices--autumn leaves is probably one of the most glaring (however, i do play it in Em whn i do it solo, like having all the open strings...but i digress) for the most part, i find that many of the tunes in the RB are in pretty commonly "jammed on" keys...

this is a fine example of why learning tunes in all keys is great practice and soewhat important. wait till you meet that singer who just loves Gb!

original key is E minor.

FatJeff · #14 07-01-2009, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatfive

I'm gonna put my own guitar centric band together!

You mean like these guys?

derek · #15 07-01-2009, 09:33 AM

As guitar players, we shouldn't care what key it is in. What difference does it make? I like the challenge of playing stuff in keys I am not accustom to. Makes it fun.

jamaise123 · #16 07-09-2009, 12:23 AM

I am very interested in making new tunes.
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Sandor · #17 12-03-2011, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randalljazz

original key is E minor.

Its funny, people always complain about autumn leaves being in E minor in the real book, but most of the versions I hear are in that key.

Reg · #18 12-04-2011, 09:48 AM

Part of being a Jazz player... being able to transpose. It's just like reading... gets better with practice. The further you can get ahead... the easier. If your just transposing changes, mechanically works... but you somewhat need to keep reading.
I usually think Form and Roman numerals... or at least the main target chords and then approach. Most tunes are basically just a few changes. I played a gig yesterday where we had a vocalist sit in with no charts... It was just sax, drums, (his gig) and guitar, A few standards and a Christmas cover... all in unique keys... That's what we do... I did have a chart for one of the tunes, original was in Ab, she sang in Eb... I verbally did quick Roman Numeral analysis... so sax and I were on same page, verbally again for B section etc... perfect no problems...
yea, I think I've played Autumn leaves in all keys...Reg

jasonc · #19 12-08-2011, 08:39 PM

There was a local guitarist here that was amazing when it came to key proficiency. He and the guys he played with were unstoppable. They would occassionally have singers sit in that would call a tune and a key but wouldn't really be comfortable with the key. You would watch Benny (Garcia) look over at the band mutter a few words and then on the turnaround they would seemlessly modulate to a key that would be more comfortable for the singer. That was something that has always stuck with me. Benny had BIG ears. You could call anything to Benny and he would play the hell out of it.