Suggested Reading for Chord Subs/Spellings

[milessound]

Hello All,

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a concise guide to chord subs and how the spellings overlap. I have trouble hearing some of the less diatonic soloing and chords. I thought some of you could suggest some resources or exercises, etc.

Thanks!

[m78w]

The Ron Miller books have some good info on this stuff.

Amazon.com: Modal Jazz Composition and Harmony Volume 1: Ron Miller: Books

But he deals more with slash chord theory than sub theory as far as overlapping subs.

I'm not sure if there's a book that spells it out like that, when I learned I ended up writing things out myself like so.

C7-F#7

C7 = C D E F G A Bb

F#7 = F# G# A# B C# D# E

Combined = C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B

This gives a chromatic scale, but when I use this technique I'm not thinking about 12 notes in a row, but sets of notes from each scale that I combine to form my lines.

For example:

I wouldn't play C D D# E F F# G.

If I wanted to go from C to G I would mix it up with sets of notes from each scale like so.

C D E/C# F G# F# G/

So the first three are from C7, the next four are from F#7, then it resolves to G. The G#-F#-G is also a nice enclosure, something that occurs alot when mixing scales, because of the added half-steps that occur.


MW

[milessound]

Thanks!!

[m78w]

No problem, you might try writing these out in 12 keys, then combing other subs to get them into your head, then take them to your guitar and get them under your ears and fingers!

MW

[Bluechipltd]

Improving aural, you need to do alot more practice. Listening to sub notes isn't a big issue if you have done chordal and harmonization. With practice it will be easy to get all the sub voicings if you can recognise the root note of the chord.

Bluechipltd

[Bluechipltd]

Is it a must that all jazz compositions should end with II7 V7 I7 chord progression?

Bluechipltd

[m78w]

It's not a must. True, most standards end in a 2-5-1 of some kind, with some subs maybe added. It's just part of the vocabulary.

MW

[randalljazz]

learn guide tones (3rds and 7ths), on string pairs 3 -- 4 and 2 --3, especially. then add bass note below, if desired, and color notes above.

example, for C7, guide tones are E and Bb. with bass note C, you have C7. with bass note F#, you have tritone sub F#7. with bass note E or G, you have E Ø (Gm6, same thing). all three are dominant function in key of F.

add 9ths, 11ths or #11ths, 13ths, #5ths, etc, on first and second strings. study how familiar left-hand chord fingerings emerge.

or just play guide tones, for a clean, uncluttered sound, especially with a bass player (and/or piano).

[phave]

I'm not sure if there's a book that spells it out like that, when I learned I ended up writing things out myself like so.

C7-F#7

C7 = C D E F G A Bb

F#7 = F# G# A# B C# D# E

Combined = C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A#

This scale, the Combined scale, was sometimes called the Parker or Full Bebop scale by older cats.

MW[/quote]

Now that's interesting. I think you forgot to include the B of the F#7 scale in the combined scale. If you do, you'll find that you have ended up with the chromatic scale, including every half step from C to C. Medieval cats may already have called it that.

Here's some bebop scales for you:
If your original scale has a major 3rd or 7th, add the #5.
If your original scale has a minor 3rd or 7th, add the major 3rd or 7th.
Use on upbeats, not on downbeats, to get used to them.

[phave]

It's not so much the fact that you'd have an 11-note scale that's strange.
It's:
-the manner at which you arrive at it (combining two scales that together contain 12 notes and leaving one out at random).
-the name you give the resulting scale (full-bebop, Parker scale)
-the source for this information, being "the old cats"

There is a huge number of references to bebop scales on the internet.
Check these for instance:
Bebop scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Free Jazz Guitar Lessons : The Bebop Scale
http://www.aebersold.com/FQ/38_bebop_players.pdf (scroll down)

David Baker is cited as the guy who invented (or at least popularized) the term Bebop-scale. A Google search on full bebop or parker scale, even with his name included does not yield any 11-note results..

Can you help? Can you point to any references that actually give an 11-note scale and call it a full bebop scale or a Parker scale? It would definitely help too to see an explanation of why it would just be the B to leave out in your example.

Thanks!

[m78w]

Ah, I see where I went off on that one. I did forget the B in the scale above so you're right it does contain all 12 notes. In that instance, when I combine those two scales, C7 and F#7, I don't focus on running the entire length of the scale but instead switch between both sounds, with the result being a "combined" sound.

For example:

I wouldn't play C D D# E F F# G.

If I wanted to go from C to G I would mix it up with sets of notes from each scale like so.

C D E/C# F G# F# G/

So the first three are from C7, the next four are from F#7, then it resolves to G. The G#-F#-G is also a nice enclosure, something that occurs alot when mixing scales, because of the added half-steps that occur.

As for the Parker scale. That's a term I got from two guys, Andre White and Kevin Dean. They used it to describe the notes that could be used over a 7th chord, say C7, when descending the scale from the root, 9th and 3rd. With those three notes you can play down the scale in 8th notes and alternate scale tones on the down beats and passing tones on the up beats. The only note that doesn't work out is the Ab, the b6th, but the other 11 do. They got this term from analyzing Parker solos to see how he approached passing notes on 7th chords, hence the term.

C B Bb A G Gb F E D Db C

D Db C B Bb A G Gb F E D

E Eb D Db C B Bb A G Gb F E

Also I wouldn't advise going to the internet to learn about bebop scales, sites are full of typos, like the one I made above! and poor information. Go to the source. Dig up a Parker solo, write it out and see how he approaches these things. Terms like Bebop scale and the "rules" that these terms imply came about many years after the recordings were made. Yes they do help in the learning process, but they can also hinder if we take them as law and don't extend beyond them.

Just my two cents. I fixed the post above.

MW

[phave]

Thanks for clearing that up!
Interesting approach you take there, I'll have to try that!

I agree that theory comes after music, not before.
I also agree that taking (descriptive) theory as (prescriptive) law is no good.

As for the internet, I think it's the greatest source of information since the dawn of time! You have text, image, sound, video, from all over the world.
Indeed you have to be aware that there is a lot of misinformation, and you need to stay awake to tell good from bad.

Luckily, there will always be people ready to defend either side of an argument...
Signing off to combine some scales now!

[wolflen]

david baker..reminds me of george russells.the "lydian chromatic" concept using the "flat five" scale combined with the "key" your in ...even if its a temp "key" Fmi7-Bb7 not resolved to Eb but used to infer Eb tonality...in this case combining Bb7 and E7 scales or back cycle a step further..Eb7-A7 and their consort minors...from what i remember its wild stuff...a catalyst of "free jazz" and beyond...i feel it has been incorporated into todays approach to a lessor degree..but used in some fusion settings..mclaughlins "five piece band" comes to mind .. crunching keys together in some passages...but it makes sense...or seems to...early experimenters like erik dolphy, were lone voices...

its like taking "harmonic acid" your happy to come down and play "green dolphin street" straight on the beat

play well

wolf