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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny View Post
    It sounds like what it is - a classical guy playing a jazz tune. Nuff said.
    Actually that went without saying. What matters is whether it sounds good or bad.

  2. #32
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    tell him to listen to jazz, not jazz guitar or fringe jazz like Ralph towner, but Armstrong, Ellington, Parker, Miles, Coltrane, 12 hours a day for a month straight. Either the music will get its hooks in him and he won't need advice from online forums, or it won't, and no amount of advice will help.

    edit: and of course he should go out an listen to jazz every night while he's at it. In boston, he could hardly go wrong by checking out Garzone every week.
    Last edited by pkirk; 03-03-2015 at 08:18 AM.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny View Post
    It sounds like what it is - a classical guy playing a jazz tune. Nuff said.
    Does Marsalis sound like a jazz guy playing classical tunes?

  4. #34
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    Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Barney Kessel. Can't play or understand the music without listening and playing with their records IMHO
    WSP

  5. #35
    I don't buy into all this "I'm a Jazz guy / Classical guy" baloney You either play or you don't.


  6. #36
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    Pkirk has the right idea. It isn't a casual endeavor. It's a full blown obsession that creates a good jazz musician, no matter where the starting point.
    WSP

  7. #37
    Yea ... there aren't to many Julian Breams in the world. It was a beautiful performance. But he's not a jazz player, and lacks many of the skills that's required to perform in a jazz style. I don't believe he really cares...

    The two younger players sound very talented also, but they should probable play music more suited to their musical skills. There are lots of transcriptions of Violin/ guitar duos out there. I've made good money sight reading through many shows of those transcriptions, and there are always spaces where if they choose, they can give the whole improvisation thing a go.

    There not going to sound like jazz players, but who cares. If they enjoy the playing and get gigs, best of luck.

    The rhythmic feel aspect of playing jazz, is not that easy, most classically trained musicians, don't really ever get it. Their not willing to hear the difference. As Peter say above... it's all BS.

    In the end who cares... Here's a list of what I can remember of material that I've read through...

    Joe Venuti and Tony Romano
    Joe and Eddie Lang
    Joe and George Barnes
    Tons of transcriptions...

    Old Eddie Smith material...

    Most of the Quintette du Hot Club deFrance recordings are transcribed, (Django and Grappelli)

    Old Stuff Smith transcriptions
    Didier Lockwood same thing
    Claude Williams

    I performed a History of Jazz Violin a few years back, every show was new music, all transcription of traditional jazz '

    Didier Lockwood performs with Bireli all over. somewhat a blend of gypsy and jazz but fun to play

    I'm assuming they both sight read well, right. I'm just a jazz player and I read through them and had no problems.
    Last edited by Reg; 03-03-2015 at 11:19 AM.

  8. #38
    Man, there is a ton of elitist BS around this topic. I don't think pro-level jazz players are out there ringing their hands because hobbyists try to play or players at any level in between that and a top pro. If JAZZ is "hurt" by players at any level other than that of Joe Pass or Wes Montgomery, it's in a truly sad state. I don't think great art needs protecting. It stands on its own. Wes doesn't sound any WORSE for the high school jazz band's playing the same tunes. Great is still great. If jazz is going to be killed off by some classical cat performing at a less than perfect standard , it might as well die.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-03-2015 at 11:26 AM.

  9. #39
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    You guys are the best! That version of Round midnight is just awesome!

  10. #40
    I kind of guess what classical players would think if I say "I play what I hear" :-)

  11. #41
    I know that the amount of mutual respect between the really great jazz players and the really great classical players in my town is sky high. They exchange chops and knowledge freely and often.

    Julian Bream played jazz all through his time in the Royal Army.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Levin View Post
    You guys are the best! That version of Round midnight is just awesome!
    With all due respect, your nephew seems like a very high level player, a very serious and dedicated musician. And a serious teacher in his own right. Telling him platitudes such as "listen to jazz" or to go the "Mickey Baker" route by recommending useless method books seems like a complete waste of time.

    Ever hear of Joe Fava, a renowned classical and jazz guitarist who understood, played and was able to convey the minute intricacies of both musics and instruments precisely ? Three of his students included Kenny Burrell, Earl Klugh and Scott Tennant (The author of the pumping nylon books previously mentioned. )Serious outstanding musicians, a renowned teacher who understood both musics precisely.

    Don't take my word for it, I'm just an amateur hobbiest. Has he called or emailed Oscar yet? I'm quite sure that Oscar will recommend someone he knows very well who is truly the closest living embodiment of Joe Fava today.

    that is, of course, if he is actually seeking such instruction. Which we don't know.
    Last edited by NSJ; 03-03-2015 at 01:57 PM.
    Navdeep Singh.

  13. #43
    Yes, I don't think jazz need protecting... but I would have no problem having more NEA money dumped into common jazz bucket, as compared to big name showcase. I mean both jazz and classical concerts haven't packed for a while. The audiences at classical concerts are getting older... but at least they still get endowments. Just for some info check out...

    Jazz Musicians and Money from Music | Artist Revenue Streams

    If you can't entertain with your music... or your waiting for the audiences to come to you, good luck. Sorry... drifting.

    As I posted earlier... there is already a very extensive collection of music... that can be used... all one needs to do is have the musical skills and be able to entertain with those skills... and if you can bring a little personality into the relationship with the audience... there's plenty of work.
    the audience will be more interested in jazz and classical music when jazz and classical music becomes interested in the audience again. - See more at: Are Classical and Jazz Music Going To Die Soon? | My Musical Talent

  14. #44
    Here's a better example of Bream playing jazz - he even bends the strings a la Django a few times.

    I believe he played plectrum guitar in a dance band before he ever took up classical guitar, so he had more experience of jazz than the average classical player in those days.


  15. #45
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    The recording above of Round Midnight as arranged by Roland Dyens and played beautifully by Roman V. is a fabulous interpretation of Monk's tune. I'd love to hear the solo version of the players here critiquing the performance. Music is music is music. Either you can play or you cannot. That simple.

    Jay

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    The recording above of Round Midnight as arranged by Roland Dyens and played beautifully by Roman V. is a fabulous interpretation of Monk's tune. I'd love to hear the solo version of the players here critiquing the performance. Music is music is music. Either you can play or you cannot. That simple.

    Jay
    Cmon. And yet, even as "music is music", each type of music and each type of instrument requires serious and dedicated study and it's own right; Studying European classical music is a serious, hard, life long endeavor...that in no way will make one ready to play jazz. Which also requires serious hard and specific work and effort that is very particular to the music itself and not the genrally applicable to other types of music.

    I own a DVD copy of the documentary on Julian breams life--there is an episode he alludes to where he was hired as a substitute to comp for a big band in a jazz setting. Afterwards, the bandleader thanked him for helping out, and if he came back tomorrow, the bandleader would "give him a rhythm guitar lesson".

  17. #47
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    Jazz, needless to say isn't something you can 'do' quickly. I don't need to remind anyone on this forum that it takes years of study to become any good at it. You could tell your friend that it will take him around a decade of study as hard as that of his classical grounding to achieve professional competence as a jazz musician.

    If he still fancies it - welcome to our merry crew!

    That said, jazz is a broad church. There are styles of improvisation more suited to a classical player, and a classical musician interested in branching out and exploring improvisation and spontaneous composition without necessarily becoming a 'jazz guitarist' per se - I'm thinking here of collaboration with jazz players exploring perhaps modal improvisation, soundscapes, atonal free improv, compositions with improvised elements and other things of that type.

    I think that sort of thing should be encouraged actually. I love eclectic projects.

    Personally, as someone who has studied straight-ahead jazz long and hard, the plain truth is that I often feel frustrated when playing with musicians from a non-jazz background in a straight-ahead context - they often don't realise what their level of ability actually is, especially from a rhythmic perspective - I mean how do you tell them tactfully?

    And I certainly don't think of myself as any kind of master of this area, so I feel very uncomfortable dishing out unsolicited criticism.

    Certainly things like Gypsy Jazz are a bit painful when people aren't playing their parts with the right feel and simplicity (rhythm guitar, bass etc) even otherwise excellent jazz players can be a bit incongruous when working in a specific style they are not familiar with.

    I'm sure they would feel the same if I tried to play their music with them.

    Might seem a bit harsh, but that's the way I feel. I don't want to discourage classical players from branching out though.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-03-2015 at 07:46 PM.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Here's a better example of Bream playing jazz - he even bends the strings a la Django a few times.

    I believe he played plectrum guitar in a dance band before he ever took up classical guitar, so he had more experience of jazz than the average classical player in those days.

    BTW I'm not disputing you can do both. It's just that both require serious concerted study, nothing controversial there, I hope :-)

  19. #49
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    As a dude who spent college practicing jazz and classical guitar in the professional, concert, recital giving type of way... I can tell you that it is enough to run a guy into the ground - and that was in college when all I really had to do was practice and play.

    as for this whole can/should he play jazz thing ... Duh. Of course he can and should. Playing real hard core jazz at the level he plays classical music will applying the same amount of time to jazz guitar that he's spent achieving that level of skill on classical guitar. A musician w the kind of maturity he seems to have probably knows that already and wouldn't expect any different.

    i think Mickey Baker might be a decent choice actually because it's swing rhythm guitar and rhythm and feel will be the hardest thing for him in the transition. I also think a study or two in technique as ot applies to jazz would be huge. Classical and jazz guitarists organize the fretboard in fundamentally different ways and have fundamentally different demands made upon them in real time performance situations. Organizing the fretboard in a way that's conducive to improvising would be really really important. The last thing would be to just soak in jazz by listening at every opportunity. That's been said a lot here. Super important.

    as an aside ... Tell him to check out Jason Vieaux's arrangements of pat metheny pieces.

    Anyway ... There's a massive middle ground where he can take any amount or aspect of jazz and make it part of his musical character. Or take it as seriously or lightly as he wants. These things will help determine how much time he needs to devote to it and how best to approach the whole mess
    Last edited by pamosmusic; 03-03-2015 at 07:50 PM.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmaaj View Post
    Did Julian Bream "trash" this?

    I think Django would be stoked to have heard this version. He loved classical music, and would have been touched I think, to think his works would be worthy of concert performance in this way by his old friend and a master classical musician.

  21. #51
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    Sorry to keep posting, but my brain is cogitating :-)

    I think the Django pieces which are less reliant on a swing groove - so his ballads and waltzes, for example - are well suited to classical interpretation. Montagne St Genevieve, for example, is kind of a classical piece as it is.

    In terms of North American jazz - I would say that Blues tunes and Rhythm Changes type things tend to show up non-idiomatic jazz players, but of course songs of composers like Cole Porter offer a range of harmony and melody that could easily be made to sound very beautiful in a classical solo way.

    In fact chord melody might be a good entry point - it would be easy to stick some standards arrangements into a recital, for example, I've seen it done quite a few times.

    There is also the Choro repertoire - often overlooked but just right for a player in the classical tradition looking to expand their horizons. Of course this might point him towards more modern Brazilian repertoire. Tango too. (Again I don't want to trivialise the commitment involved in learning these musics properly, but in some ways they might be more accessible that say, blue note jazz.)

    In terms of developing swing feel - well that's a whole different line of discussion :-)
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-03-2015 at 08:09 PM.

  22. #52
    I think crossovers are always a good idea. Most of the time it does not work but when it works, you get something exciting.

    The more people trying new stuff the more chance at new stuff.

    Jazz defined as "improvised music" is HUGE

    Jazz defined as "swing and idiomatic instrumentation" is quite small in my opinion.
    2014 Sadowsky Jim Hall
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  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takemitsu View Post
    I think crossovers are always a good idea. Most of the time it does not work but when it works, you get something exciting.

    The more people trying new stuff the more chance at new stuff.

    Jazz defined as "improvised music" is HUGE

    Jazz defined as "swing and idiomatic instrumentation" is quite small in my opinion.
    There's nothing small about idiomatic jazz rhythm - i.e. swing. It's a huge area of study, poorly documented and understood in the academic world. This is the true jazz tradition IMHO - very specific yet also endlessly creative.

    In terms of playing a 'style' such as Gypsy Jazz, bop, Swing with a big S, whatever - well it's good for learning and mastering an element of the tradition. You might even make money out of it. But yes, that is 'small.'

    Defining jazz as improvised music is actually quite idiotic as so many forms of music have an improvised element to them (even Western classical in history.) However, in the world we live in, 'jazz' often acts as an umbrella term for 'improvised art music.'

    Jazz trained musicians can bring their thing to the party, just like everyone else in Music.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-03-2015 at 08:58 PM.

  24. #54
    In contrast to the arrangement above:




    It came up after I watched the Dyens version and thought it was cool.

  25. #55
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    Jason Vieaux

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    There's nothing small about idiomatic jazz rhythm - i.e. swing. It's a huge area of study, poorly documented and understood in the academic world. This is the true jazz tradition IMHO - very specific yet also endlessly creative.

    In terms of playing a 'style' such as Gypsy Jazz, bop, Swing with a big S, whatever - well it's good for learning and mastering an element of the tradition. You might even make money out of it. But yes, that is 'small.'

    Defining jazz as improvised music is actually quite idiotic as so many forms of music have an improvised element to them (even Western classical in history.) However, in the world we live in, 'jazz' often acts as an umbrella term for 'improvised art music.'

    Jazz trained musicians can bring their thing to the party, just like everyone else in Music.
    I agree that there will be an infinity of material to be studied from playing a single song in a single style. Thats right and I cant logically argue with that.

    This said, from what I hear nowadays on the "jazz" scene, everything goes!!! is there is a single style or genre that has not been "absorbed" in the "jazz" tradition today? Okay I'm sure that if we look we could find but really, if I look at what is presented as jazz in i.e. Downbeat magazine, it goes from classical (ECM), indian, hip hop, rock, etc which lead me to think that jazz nowadays is really a term we use (definitely in north america) to describe improvised music in general. Wich is cool with me.

    Now this whole truckload of creators is huge but if you take only those who use idiomatic instrumentation AND swing AND standards, it seems small to me "in comparison".

    Is that really idiot?
    Last edited by Takemitsu; 03-03-2015 at 09:24 PM.
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  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takemitsu View Post
    I agree that there will be an infinity of material to be studied from playing a single song in a single style. Thats right and I cant logically argue with that.

    This said, from what I hear nowadays on the "jazz" scene, everything goes!!! is there is a single style or genre that has not been "absorbed" in the "jazz" tradition today? Okay I'm sure that if we look we could find but really, if I look at what is presented as jazz in i.e. Downbeat magazine, it goes from classical (ECM), indian, hip hop, rock, etc which lead me to think that jazz nowadays is really a term we use (definitely in north america) to describe improvised music in general. Wich is cool with me.

    Now this whole truckload of creators is huge but if you take only those who use idiomatic instrumentation AND swing AND standards, it seems small to me "in comparison".

    Is that really idiot?
    Well yeah, I think it is - the conention that jazz can be defined as improvised music. There is an element of cultural imperialism I find distasteful. Jazz has been absorbed by other traditions as much as the other way around.

    I mean, does Anouar Brahem play jazz?

    Anyway this discussion is always a bit pointless not least because I don't really care. There is unarguable hardcore jazz and there is the much wider penumbra of arty-semi-or-fully-improvised-usually-instrumental-eclectic-what-the-hell-is-this-oh-we'll-just-call-it-jazz-for soemthing-to-call-it-music. I have a project of my very own which fits into that sphere and love much of that kind of stuff.

    I suppose you have to call it something, but it does tend to confuse the layperson.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-03-2015 at 09:52 PM.

  28. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well yeah, I think it is. There is an element of cultural imperialism I find distasteful. Jazz has been absorbed by other traditions as much as the other way around.

    I mean, does Anouar Brahem play jazz?

    Anyway this discussion is always a bit pointless not least because I don't really care. There is unarguable hardcore jazz and there is the much wider penumbra of arty-semi-or-fully-improvised-usually-instrumental-eclectic-what-the-hell-is-this-oh-we'll-just-call-it-jazz-for soemthing-to-call-it-music. I have a project of my very own which fits into that sphere and love much of that kind of stuff.

    I suppose you have to call it something, but it does tend to confuse the layperson.
    Could it be that its an other point of view and you don't agree instead of being "idiot"? I mean, I tried to explain my point with valid facts no?
    2014 Sadowsky Jim Hall
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  29. #59
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    BTW when I talk about jazz rhythm, this sensibility can be applied to all sorts of material, as we saw with Ornette Coleman, Miles etc. It's not necessarily - lets play a standard.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takemitsu View Post
    Could it be that its an other point of view and you don't agree instead of being "idiot"? I mean, I tried to explain my point with valid facts no?
    I was being a bit rude, it wasn't actually meant personally. Sorry if it came across that way.

    We are essentially in agreement. I get a bit pissed off with the whole jazz = improvised music thing, hence the unkind adjective. I mean, how would that feel if you were a Carnatic classical musician whose musical heritage stretches back thousands of years?

    I don't think it's a point of view thing. Jazz is not the same thing as improvised music. It's a tradition of music with an improvised element and some important specific features. Same as Carnatic music, or European music in the 18th century, say.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-03-2015 at 10:07 PM.

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