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I have been playing guitar for six years now, during the first five years i focused alot on my single-note playing, and less on learning specific chords, progressions etc. So when i improvise today my vocabulary and ability to play what i hear is quite good in terms of single-note runs and phrases. But of course when i try to solo or comp with block chords or simply more than a single note at one time my flexibility and nimbleness is not nearly as well developed. Besides not having practiced enough on this, a smaller problem is that ive never felt comfortable playing chords with a pick, add to this that ive recently discovered the fantastic sound and control i get with a stone-pick for single-notes, that in itself doesnt make it easier. Im fairly flexible in terms of breaking up chords as long as i maintain the overall shape, and just switch out maybe one note at a time, but again thats one thing i should be able to do. The problem often arises when ive played one chorus with quite basic comping, and feel like shaking up things a little in the next, i could always make up something interesting with single notes or octaves, but i would like to be able to do this with chords too, and even blend the two for more complexity and variation in my playing.
Would be great to hear your experiences on this.
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08-16-2014 10:51 AM
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Couple sources that helped my along the way are two companion books by Mike di Liddo with guitar comping ideas for Vol 54 from Aebersold series. One presents full transcript and the other teaches you the basic sets of chordal ideas. Both are useful and they complement each other:
Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Easy Jazz Guitar: Voicings & Comping - Book/2 CDs
Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Volume 54 "Maiden Voyage" Guitar VoicingsLast edited by woland; 08-16-2014 at 02:51 PM.
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Andrew Green's book on comping is advanced, and definitely worth a look. No tab.
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Charlton Johnson's book on swing / big band guitar is good.
Swing and Big Band Guitar: Four-To-The Bar Comping in the Style of Freddie Green: Charlton Johnson: 0073999951479: Amazon.com: Books
It's good to know those 3-note voicings even if you don't play swing, per se. They come in handy other places too.
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I can highly recommend Fareed Haque's Comping Survival guide on Truefire.com. It gives a lot of information in an easy to understand format. There are playing examples for all the concepts. I'm working through it now.
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Who are players you listen to? I ask because though the idea of comping may be easy to hear, the approach may differ depending on the sound you're after. Block chords. Freddie Green? The sources we can steer you towards might be streamlined at this early point by knowing what it is you're needing. Bill Frisell's toolkit may have a different set of considerations from Django's.
David
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The focus you've kept on single note playing, to the apparent detriment of your chordal playing, has probably left your skills a bit lopsided. As guitarists who play with people in any typical context, we fill the role of harmonic instrument more often than soloist. Of course there are exceptions to that rule, but most of us are not exceptions.
One of the key things about comping in a fluid style is to keep the chords close together on the fretboard; that is, not to jump abruptly from position III to position VII and back to II all the time. That's what rock players often do, because they only know barre chords, and one or two positions for each type. (generalizing here...)
By "close together" I don't mean there is no movement up or down the neck; only that the progression of chords in the chart should move up or down smoothly most of the time. Abrupt position changes should have a purpose based on desired dynamics, an accented melody note, etc. You shouldn't do them just because you don't know any other way to play that particular chord.
To do this, you need to know the five basic 7th chords* in many forms, with bass roots and as inversions. And from there, know how to add 9ths, flat or sharp 5ths, etc. - in order to build "jazz chords" or to add melodic ornaments to the comping.
There are a million chord books, but they can be overwhelming. It's kind of like learning a language by pulling random words from a dictionary. So I have had the most success learning new voicings by figuring them out myself, then forcing myself to play them constantly when presented with that particular chord type. My memory becomes more solid after I've worked out the shape, written it down, posted it where I practice, and forced myself to play it in tunes.
Doing this with ii-V-I progressions is a decent step. But I prefer just taking a tune I want to play, starting off on the first chord whereever I feel like playing it, and then trying to figure out natural movement from that position for each subsequent chord.
*Maj7, Dom. 7, min7, half dim7, dim7
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I always liked hearing how economical pianists Bud Powell and Bill Evans were when comping in a quintet. Mostly shell chords and a feel that easily translates to guitar comping.
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Originally Posted by Kevin
I studied under Fareed for a couple years. His playing is only second to his pedagogy. I never seen the true-fire stuff but the comping tools he gave me have defined how I've seen the fretboard for two decades.
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My two cents:
Learn all the drop voicings (drop 2, drop 3...etc) in all string sets. There's a Ben Monder video on mymusicmasterclass that is probably the best material on this I've ever seen. I used to be really against learning the type of voicings, saying one should learn to construct one's own voicings, but these voicings are really useful, and they get you to know the notes, and what you can change for extensions and alterations.
As far as rhythmically, transcribe some Max Roach, Papa Joe, Philly Joe, and Jimmy Cobb snare comping. Also check out snare drum books that have comping patterns (John Riley's books are great).
Lastly, check out Herbie Hancock's comping with Miles, that'll show you how to combine everything.
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I know we all know it, but the first Mickey Baker book is a pretty good way to get started with comping...
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Mr. B's quick guide to comping:
Learn all the root position drop 2 voicings for maj7, m7, 7, m7b5, learn which note is the fifth so it can be raised or lowered, and learn where the 9ths are at in relationship to the shape so they can be grabbed if needed.
Learn how to put any melody note you need on top of those chords.
Then, don't play the roots.
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In my experience it was always about getting the vibe happening in the band more than the voicings.
This video pretty much sums it up:
Jens
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Generally comping in jazz for guitar is about lead lines... the melody your playing on top of the chords your playing.
The basic reference for jazz is 7th chords... that's the starting reference.
The next level is what other chords your playing besides the notated changes. Lead sheets are just a guideline. Jazz players use Chord Patterns... Chord patterns are just collections of chords, the amount of chords depends on the tempo and space to fill. The chord patterns are from Jazz Standards... all the jazz tunes. II V's, I VI II V's, I bVII, bVI, V etc..and use of all subs and tonal references... the tonal references would reflect what versions of those chord patterns your using... maj., min, dom, altered etc..
You generally have Targets, tonal targets, usually beginning with beginnings of phrases, downbeats of sections etc...
You then use the lead sheet as a basic reference to create your lead lines on top of your chord patterns.
There are melody lead lines, counter melody lead lines, groove lead lines, background lead lines and accent lead lines.
With practice you develop a collection of these Chord patterns with the different lead lines which will reflect your targets harmonically. They become basically... like playing single chords. Don't get hung up on voicings and voice leading...
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Great point reg.
i never really thought about that way. I've been stuck on looking at chord changes as going from one chord to the next and then trying to fit inversions or subs in between. Whereas you're suggesting a more "licks" approach? Just like learning that cool lick across a ii V to use when needed, your idea above would be to use that same method to learn a "chord lick" (for lack of a better term) for use in comping.
i already do that sometimes but I never looked at it from that angle. That just opened up a new door for me. I love when this happens. Can't wait to put the kids to bed tonight and try it out. Thanks reg.
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I'm not sure licks is a great term for understanding this approach... I would think of the approach as more of an interacting method of creating harmonic motion when comping.
The only real consistent aspect is generally the spatial thing, the actual "Form" of the tune or whatever your playing. Generally when you plug and play your lead lines with different harmonic approaches, whether it be modal, modal interchange, pulling from Melodic minor or just Blue Note influenced... the chances you'll play a tune the same way twice... is not very common.
Anyway glad it might help...
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In one of her TrueFire courses, Sheryl Bailey makes a pretty good point about the importance of building a strong feel for "the quarter note" time, and she teaches four-to-the-bar comping and shell chords as a way to do this.
She says, If a guitarist can just play the right chord quality (maj, minor, aug, dim) at the right time in the tune, and GROOVE, she'll give him a job in her band, snap-o-the-fingers.
Not trying to detract from anything posted here; maybe just something to bear in mind, though, esp. for those of us who dig the fundamentals?
kjLast edited by Kojo27; 10-03-2014 at 04:46 PM. Reason: first paragraph was screwed up, point vague?
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That's a good point... that part about the right time and Groove... and maybe even the Right chord, hmmm what's complicated about comping.
Sorry kj not trying to ? Just what might be an example, Sheryl sure doesn't play that simple. There might be a difference between where one starts and where one is trying to get.
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I'm not for sure what you're saying, Reg... I rewrote my first paragraph, above, so perhaps it makes better sense? Originally Posted by Reg
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To me, this forum is like a big conversation. So, my post, above, is just a point that came to my mind as I read what others were saying about this particular topic of "conversation."
I'm *not* trying to compete with anyone, not trying to do anything but enjoy the conversation and try to add something, if I think of something that seems worth adding. This came to mind, and I figured if Sheryl Bailey finds it important, at least one other person in the thread might, also.
We all know how the great artists, athletes, etc., are almost always gluttons for the fundamentals, and this is what Bailey is getting at with the shell comping. Develop that quarter note pulse. Go after it like a weight lifter.
Here’s an excerpt from one of her TrueFire courses, and I think she makes the point pretty well.
“…jazz is such a complex music, rhythmically. So much is about your rhythm, and feel, and your phrasing. So by deepening, and strengthening and really understanding that sense of the quarter note, that push of the 2 and 4 – everything is going to lay right… you’re building a foundation for an incredible house.KJ
"Like I always say, ‘If you could play some swinging, quarter note time, grooving, it feels good, that pocket’s there, the chords are correct – you got a gig with me. You can be my rhythm guitarist anytime.' When I’m playing rhythm guitar with anybody – some of the crazy characters that I get to do it with, that’s really what my focus is, and what I'm striving for – it’s just to lay down a sweet, fat pocket for them to do their thing in. Keeping the chord qualities correct, and just letting that groove happen. So in many ways it’s a simple principle, but it’s a deep principle. And I know that if you work on this, it will deepen everything that you do.”
Last edited by Kojo27; 10-03-2014 at 06:27 PM.
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Hey KJ,
sorry if came off rude etc... wasn't meant to be. My point was her comments about comping were so general that almost any aspect could become the point.
General comments about rhythm, feel and phrasing and pushing the quarter note, I'm guessing to control swing feel.
How many times is the metaphor...foundation and house used to basically say nothing.
It's just when your trying to actually discuss comping you need to get into real performance details of what one is implying. The actual organization and applications of what ever detail your discussing.
So when I read some post of someone posting comments from someone else, with no real relationship to where the thread could or should be going... I make stupid comments, and again sorry.
But comping is not that simple, which is why most guitarist suck, I'm just trying to actually change that "suck" detail.
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