Four on Six....

[GordoninNM]

I'm just sure that someone posted a chord voicing study for Four on Six, I swear I was looking at it yesterday.... but I cant seem to find it now. I'm struggling with this one a bit.

Thanks in advance,

Gordo

[GordoninNM]

Maybe I've lost my mind... it's possible, here's why I ask...

In a nutshell, About 15 yrs back, I severely damaged the middle finger of my left hand in an industrial accident. I thought my string playing days were over. I didn't play for a dozen years. About a year and a half ago, I decided to give it a go, and see how much I COULD play given my "modified" left hand. Results have been very good so far, I'm having good success on linear work using a modified system of fingerings based on Jimmy Bruno's "five shapes", and I'm finding way's to get good voicings for most chords using my left thumb to catch the bass notes of a chord on the sixth or fifth string. The other three fingers are usually enough to cover the rest, there are however a lot of chord "shapes " or inversions that I cannot physically grip because of the relative positions of the notes on the strings. That said, I can usually sit down in front of a lead sheet for a tune I don't know, and comp out a reasonable rendition of the changes. I'm currently digging the "grips" thread as these kinds of voicings are the kind of thing I'm finding really useful, this notion has a lot of meat in it for a guy like me.

The problems for me mostly arise with extended chords, as I simply don't have enough available fingers to play all the notes in the full chords. Right now I'm trying to work on simpler voicings that maintain the essential flavor of the moving harmony lines.

I've been looking over a lot of Matt's and John's CM charts and finding lot's of very useful and applicable stuff in them. I'm seeing more and more how much utility there is in some of the more reduced voicings I see in these.

Anyway, I'm working on Four on Six right now and I'm having trouble finding a playable chord line that sounds correct for the descending four bar chord riff in the head that follows the single note signature passage. I don't have the book in front of me now, and I've seen the chords notated differently but it starts with a Cmin9 (seen also as a Cmin7) F9b5, Bbm9 Eb9b5, Amin9 D9b5, Ebmin9 A9... Ive seen it written out differently from different transcribers some (most) indicating 7#11's instead of the 9b5's, some indicating simple dominants.

So that's where I'm coming from in the original question. I can see there's a lot of knowledgable players here, and I'm hoping that some of you might be able to offer me some help. Also, A big thank you to the member who sent me the transcription.

Thanks,

GordoninNM

[JohnW400]

I know this tune. I'll get you something later tonight or tomorrow latest with some voicings that may work for you. Unfortunately I don't have Sibelius loaded on my computer at work

[GordoninNM]

Wow, thanks a lot John, I wasn't expecting such a quick reply. Thanks also for all the stuff you've been posting. I've been going over the postings on the board for the last few days (just discovered the site about a week ago) and man, there's a lot of useful meaty stuff here (much of it from you), no way to digest it all...

Thanks,
Gordo

[JohnW400]

I put the fingerings in on the chords and avoided 2nd finger voicings. Nothing fancy.



11/12 see below for better chart

[GordoninNM]

Thanks a ton, John... I'm about to turn in now but it looks like it should grip out sweetly. I'll give it a test drive in the AM. As if this tune wasn't enough to work on, I spent the evening buzzing around on Unit Seven, just about got the head and the chords down....thanks to funnyval for the breakdown on Wes' comping approach on U-7, made it a lot easier to pick up. Dig the sound of those 2 note voicings.

Gordo

[GordoninNM]

Ok John, Ran through it. Thanks for your help. The descending chord line in ending 1 works really well, I realize now that I was leaving out the top notes in my condensed voicings and that's where the flavor was. It seems so simple when it's laid out in front of you...

FWIW in your section2 where you have condensed the original passage which I hear as Bbmaj7 Gm7^ G#m7 ^Am7 down to a full bar of Am11, I am able to play the full voicings on this run using my thumb to catch the roots on the low E string, giving a really nice chromatic runup to the big POP on the D7#9 which I can also voice more fully using the left thumb to catch the low A and D giving me a deep root and a 5 on what seems to me to be a big POW! chord (I can almost hear a horn section jumping onto this thing with both feet). I like the wide sound on that chord. These kind of thumb grips give me back some of the range that I lose to the second finger issue,(Which incidentally I can employ for certain chord shapes on the second and third strings).

In short, Thanks John you gave me exactly what I needed. It was being able to look at your voicings versus my own on the descending chord run, and see that I was leaving out the high extensions, and losing the color that made it sound so good when Wes played it. You couldn't know my exact hand configuration or capabilities and therefore may have reduced parts of the tune more vigorously than I needed. More important for me was being able to see on the chart what you reduced, how you reduced it, and more importantly what you did NOT reduce. This helped me zero in on those essential intervals where the treasure lies.

I'm also seeing clearly that I need to work on my 4321 grips as I realized (light bulb) that most of the time (90%) in my chord work I'm playing on 5 strings and lean too heavily on 6432 and 5432 shapes because I can thumb grab the bass notes, it's become a habit. Sometimes the upper registers hold the goodies, and I need to be comfortable going there.

I want to thank you for your help John, and i hope my appeal didn't sound like a "Would somebody please write me a dumbed down arrangement of this song because I'm too lazy to practice and learn my instrument" play. I know you didn't respond that way. Yeah, I'm in the process of re-learning my instrument, but one of the great invisible gems of this journey, is that I'm learning more about MUSIC than I ever would have otherwise. Partly out of necessity, but the other part is pure joy.For whatever it's worth, after having put the guitar aside for almost 15 years, thinking it was just part of my "history", I have returned with a new passion, drive, and inquisitiveness. Unexplainable as it seems to me, I am playing better than I EVER did before (I'm 50 yrs old), my lines are more musically interesting, my chord work is richer if perhaps a little denser(working on that). I'm playing what I hear, and I'm willing to ask for a little help when I need to. I wouldn't trade that for all the fingers in the world.

Blessings to all those who share their time and experience to share the MUSIC.

Gordo

[JohnW400]

Your welcome. I didn't think you were lazy and as long as I have the chart and know the tune it's no problem. To me, your working through a handicap not being able to use the 2nd finger and I respect that. You get extra points for effort.

I also don't consider the chart as 'dumbed" down. The only difference is that I left off the root on the 7#11 chords. And fyi, I thought you might be able to reach them with your thumb. but since I wasn't sure, I left them off. Believe me if you look at my stuff I tend to stay away from a lot of 'off the shelf' voicings and opt for lesser used ones that fit the line better (IMO).

On the section 2, I'm pretty sure the Real Book is correct on the chords. I have a transcription of the Wes version somewhere. I'll have to dig it out this weekend and have a look to make sure I got it correct in the chart .

the only thing I left out was the changes for the solo sction. I think you can find the chart for this in that post that Skei did about 557 pdf's. You should download it if you haven't already.

I'm also 50. I was gigging a whole lot more before 2005 when my wife got ill. She's much better these days and I even did 2 gigs this year . Contributing some chord melodies to this forum is what has helped to get me back on track. I'm still not gigging like I used to but now I'm actually thinking about starting a web site and writting up some lessons on Chord's, CM's and improvising chord solos.

[GordoninNM]

John, re: section 2.... Sure enough I've got the RB 5th edition in .pdf on my laptop here, and you're right it shows a full bar of Am7(11) leading to the D7#9. I could swear that 6th edition (the new "legalized" one) I have at home shows the ascending chromatic line I described, but as I said in my opening post, I may be losing my mind. I'll check once I get home. I've got Smokin' at the Half Note ( the only recording I have of 4 on 6) up on my laptop now and as I listen through these really crappy laptop speakers, I honestly can't tell. The fidelity ain't great on this live recording (but MAN the playing is!) I can definitely hear the Bbmaj7 on beat one, the rest is up for discussion. I also know that my minds ear has been known to insert stuff that's not there, for the simple reason that I THINK it's there...Maybe it's just because I've been playing it that way, that my mind "hears it that way" :-).

Thanks again, now I have to go listen to this one carefully on some better equipment.

Gordo

[GordoninNM]

well... upon examination of Realbook 6th edition, it does indeed show the 2 section as Bbmaj7 Gm7 G#m7 Am7, but I'm not sure I believe it.

Review of an older transcription from an earlier book of Wes transcriptions it shows the same passage as:
[Bbmaj7 / / Amin7][D7#9 ]

(another country heard from...)

Listening to "Smokin' at the Half Note" on better equipment, I can clearly hear the Bbmaj7, the Am7 (can't exactly determine the extension if any) and the D7#9. The middle two beats of the first measure are indeterminate and go by so fast that I don't think it matters, The question now becomes academic. It could also be that Wes played the phrase differently at different times. Hope I don't sound argumentative, I'm sure not trying to be... now I'm just curious.

Personally, I like the sound of the ascending chromatics so I'll play it that way, it IS jazz after all. Whether or not I'm playing it correctly, which is something I strive to do on heads, God only knows. It seems that the "experts" who publish these transcriptions can't agree at all either. Who knows?

Gordo

[Little Jay]

FWIW, at the "The Incredible Jazzguitar of Wes Montgomery" record I too hear the Bmaj7 - Gm7 - G#m7 - Am7 - D7b10 (or D7#9) chords very clearly. But I have also versions of Wes playing the tune live in Europe and some other occasions and sometimes they play only Am7... Well, I guess you guys are right that it's jazz after all!

My difficulty with the tune is actually the chord progression in the solos. The RealBook states the following chords:

|Gm7 | % | % | % |
|C7 F7 |Bbm7 F7 | Am7 D7|Ebm7 Ab7 |

|Gm7 | % | % |Cm7 F7 |
|Bbmaj7 |Am7b5 D7|Gm7 |Am7 D7b9|

But I am having trouble with the 2nd part, especially the Cm7 - F7 I do not recognize. Although theoretically in order, it makes the three bars of Gm7 feel asymetric, so I tend to play another bar of Gm7 instead and go directly to the Bbmaj7. Any thoughts on this?

greetz

[JohnW400]

I checked out the transcrition I have. The only thing I looked at though was what Wes played at the Ami7 part. It shows low to high, D Bb D twice going to C A C and back to D Bb D (octaves w/ a 6th in the middle).

I 'll check it against the recording this weekend

Little Jay, your right about that Cm-F7. It just don't feel right. I'll have to take a closer look at this tune


11/12

I looked at the new real book. I should have used this one as my reference as it looks better. I'm still going to check it against the recording(s) this weekend

[ratiugzzaj]

does someone have a copy from
the solo four on six from wes ?thanks
greets

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by ratiugzzaj

does someone have a copy from
the solo four on six from wes ?thanks
greets

Amazon.com: Best of Wes Montgomery: Guitar (Signature Licks) (9780634009020): Wolf Marshall, Wes Montgomery: Books

[rill]

Originally Posted by Little Jay

FWIW, at the "The Incredible Jazzguitar of Wes Montgomery" record I too hear the Bmaj7 - Gm7 - G#m7 - Am7 - D7b10 (or D7#9) chords very clearly. But I have also versions of Wes playing the tune live in Europe and some other occasions and sometimes they play only Am7... Well, I guess you guys are right that it's jazz after all!

My difficulty with the tune is actually the chord progression in the solos. The RealBook states the following chords:

|Gm7 | % | % | % |
|C7 F7 |Bbm7 F7 | Am7 D7|Ebm7 Ab7 |

|Gm7 | % | % |Cm7 F7 |
|Bbmaj7 |Am7b5 D7|Gm7 |Am7 D7b9|

But I am having trouble with the 2nd part, especially the Cm7 - F7 I do not recognize. Although theoretically in order, it makes the three bars of Gm7 feel asymetric, so I tend to play another bar of Gm7 instead and go directly to the Bbmaj7. Any thoughts on this?

greetz

I tend to look at bar 12 [C-7 F7] as the ii V7 of Bb, if it sounds weird try just hitting the F7 on the last beat of bar 12 just before you go to Bbmaj7. From there it's just a short leap to a ii-V7/Bb. But as others have said, I tend to agree that it is optional.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by GordoninNM

Maybe I've lost my mind... it's possible, here's why I ask...

In a nutshell, About 15 yrs back, I severely damaged the middle finger of my left hand in an industrial accident. I thought my string playing days were over. I didn't play for a dozen years. About a year and a half ago, I decided to give it a go, and see how much I COULD play given my "modified" left hand. Results have been very good so far, I'm having good success on linear work using a modified system of fingerings based on Jimmy Bruno's "five shapes", and I'm finding way's to get good voicings for most chords using my left thumb to catch the bass notes of a chord on the sixth or fifth string. GordoninNM

Django Reinhard rose to fame AFTER he seriously and permanently injured his left hand in a fire.

In another context, the old LIFE photographer Alfred Eisenstaedt said that "Photography is not not about gear but about being inventive with whatever gear you got.".

BTW, "Four on six" is basically "Summertime" or? ....

[FatJeff]

JohnW can you post your voicings here? This is a tune I worked on recently (transcribed the solo...can't play it for sh*t though). I'm interested in seeing other approaches to comping this great tune.

[Little Jay]

Originally Posted by oldane

BTW, "Four on six" is basically "Summertime" or? ....

Compare Tal Farlow's version of Summertime on "The Return Of Tal Farlow/1969" with 4 on 6 and spot the differences! (Exactly the same chord progression! I would say 4 on 6 is a variation on Summertime)

[Reg]

And there both 16 bar minor blues. I, IV I V... there are of course millions of different approaches to playing that simple blues. But they all start with that basic harmonic movement... What ever you change still relates and is built from that simple Blues. That is unless you really re-harmonize... new tonal reference etc... Reg

["Umm, fish?"]

The problems for me mostly arise with extended chords, as I simply don't have enough available fingers to play all the notes in the full chords. Right now I'm trying to work on simpler voicings that maintain the essential flavor of the moving harmony lines.

I know that I'm late to this thread, but I wanted to reply to this paragraph.

Gordon, I know that the tunings are completely different, but you might consider some of the techniques that mandolin and other four string instrument players use once they start trying to play extended chords.

1. Get rid of the root tone. It's optional and the bass player can take care of it. Rootless voicings are more "jazzy" anyway.

2. Get rid of the fifth. It's pretty much a neutral tone unless it's altered, so ditch it when you can. And, if there are still too many tones to sound with your left hand,

3. Sound the chord tones through time. You can outline the chord with one voicing and then voice lead to another position that sounds the rest of the chord tones within the time allotted for the original chord. Unless you are playing a fast tune, you can often get the whole harmony you want to express into the space allotted for it.

4. If you just can't figure out a way to play the chord as written, screw it. Just play the basic chord. It gives more space to the soloist anyway and often sounds better than if you try to force something that ain't gonna happen. This is jazz, after all. It's your choice if you want to change the harmony. Just make it sound good.

I hope those ideas help.