analyzing rhythm change

[Sailor]

Assuming that rhythm changes is a I-vi-ii-V-I progression I had a couple of chord questions.

FM7 (I), F#dim (rootless D7b9, vi?), Gm7 (ii), G#dim (?), Am7(sub I?),

D7b9 (vi or V7 of ii?), Gm7 (ii), C7b9 (V), .....


Thanks Sailor

[m78w]

You're on the right track

Fmaj7 I

F#dim7 VI7b9 first inversion

Gm7 ii

G#dim7 bIIIdim7 = passing diminished chord, or can also be thought of as an E7b9 in first inversion, V7b9/Am7.

Am7 is also Fmaj7/A so it's a sub for I

D7b9 is VI7b9 and V7b9/ii(Gm7)

etc

MW

[Sailor]

Thanks Matt - I pretty much get how to analyze most songs now; I was having a hard time justifying the G#dim as just a passing chord, so I like to think of it, now, as a secondary Dom.

Thanks Sailor

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by Sailor

Thanks Matt - I pretty much get how to analyze most songs now; I was having a hard time justifying the G#dim as just a passing chord, so I like to think of it, now, as a secondary Dom.

Thanks Sailor

Good man. Dim and Aug chords are usually dominant chords in disguise. Some are pretty tricky. Remember that Dim7's can only be four different 7b9 chords. Augmented triads can be trickier, but they usually come from 7b13 chords w/o 5ths. That's what I use, and it sounds dead on to me. Experiment. Good luck!

[JonnyPac]

My take on basic Rhythm Changes....

This example is in the key of Bb Major (with many borrowed chords).

|Bb G7 |Cm7 F7 |Dm7 G7 |Cm7 F7 |
|Fm7 Bb7 |Eb Ab7 |Dm7 G7 |Cm7 F7 |

|Bb G7 |Cm7 F7 |Dm7 G7 |Cm7 F7 |
|Fm7 Bb7 |Eb Ab7 |Dm7 G7 |Cm7 F7 Bb |

|Am7 |D7 |Dm7 |G7 |
|Gm7 |C7 |Cm7 |F7 |

|Bb G7 |Cm7 F7 |Dm7 G7 |Cm7 F7 |
|Fm7 Bb7 |Eb Ab7 |Dm7 G7 |Cm7 F7 Bb |

The A sections: the Bb is I of Bb Major, the G7s are III7 of Eb Major, the Cm7s and F7s are ii-V7 of Bb Major, the Dm7 is iii of Bb Major, the Fm7 and Bb7 are ii-V7 of Eb Major, the Eb is IV of Bb Major, and the Ab7 is from the fourth mode of Eb Melodic Minor

The B Section: the Am7 and D7 are ii-V7 of G Major, the Dm7 and G7 are ii-V7 of C Major, the Gm7 and C7 are ii-V7 of F Major, and the Cm7 and F7 are ii-V7 of the targeted key (and chord) Bb Major.

This is the launching point. Some players go nuts from there! Enjoy!

[Sailor]

So...

Is this still just a re-harm of Bb Bdim Cm7 C#dim....?

Is the Dm7 in meas 3 a sub for Bb...?

Can the G7 and F7 meas 3 & 4 be dom7b9's...?

I have seen too many versions to keep it all straight! What do I play if I jam with someone? Is there ONE standard...?

Thanks, Sailor

[JonnyPac]

I wish it was so simple. Everyone plays it different every time almost. The Doms can all be altered. This version is pretty textbook, IMHO...

[Reg]

Hey Sailor... JP's versions is very cool and used.... I hear and usually play a little different
Bb713 G7#9 l C-7 F7#9 l Bb713 G7#9 l C-7 F7#9 l
F-11 Bb13 l Eb6/9 Ab13 l D-7b5 G7#9 l C-7 F7#9 l
The I chord can be Bb6/9... if you have problems dealing with Dom. voicings. I don't think of hear G7 as V of II, I hear as VI7. If you play a II- in front then it becomes more of a V of II. The progression I VI II V is thought of as a chord pattern...it's one of the many standard chord patterns that are used in jazz that don't need analysis, (Roman Numeral description) unless composer specifies exact chords... The reason is just that... There are many choices for chords, but our ear is use to the Root pattern of ( I VI II V ) In analysis some simply bracket the changes as I just did and put C.P. over the top. J.P.'s analysis is one of the many choices... and a very cool one at that, but just one of many. When I play or hear the 2nd 4 bars... I also hear F-7 Bb7 as II V of Ebmaj, almost a temporary Modulation, and the Ab7 can be a duel function chord, the IV7 of Eb and also the bVII7 of Bb. I tend to hear as were in Bb. Again II- V7 of II- V7 or in this example l D-7 G7 l C-7 F7 l is many times bracketed and though of as Chord Pattern, same reasons. I usually play D-9 G7#9 l C-7 F7#9. When I play #9 chords I'm almost always playing from Altered or blue notes influenced harmony.
The bridge or B section... Jonny's analysis of Gmaj to Cmaj to Fmaj and back to Bbmaj works very well... most just think of as extended Dom. or again Chord Pattern. I have always heard as D7, G7, C7 and F7 starting with Lyd.b7 on each and going from there. I hear each chord as a new I7 chord...and then as extended or secondary doms. I don't think I've ever played Rhythm changes as straight as J.P.s version and analysis but if I was looking for a traditional or classical analysis it would be as good as any start. I don't... I'm not trying to play/hear classically or think that way. Anyway I dig JPs version and really enjoy his playing and his ability to explain... must be great teacher. But there are many more ways to hear/play Rhythm changes... Best Reg
JP... please don't take as negative... just a different approach, no better or worse Reg

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Sailor

Assuming that rhythm changes is a I-vi-ii-V-I progression I had a couple of chord questions.

FM7 (I), F#dim (rootless D7b9, vi?), Gm7 (ii), G#dim (?), Am7(sub I?),

D7b9 (vi or V7 of ii?), Gm7 (ii), C7b9 (V), ...

To Sailor's original question: The #ii dim (G#dim7, since we're in F) is V/iii. Treat it as E7 moving to Am (which is, of course, the start of a ii-V, ii-V turnaround).

You'll hear guys playing lines based on this, even when the rhythm section is playing a more straight ahead I - vi - ii - V set of changes.

I think it's atypical to hear folks play the I chord as a dom 7 (as Reg suggests), but it's still an interesting suggestion.

The bridge is more commonly played as a sequence of dom 7ths (III7 - VI7 - II7 - V7), 2 bars each, rather than ii - Vs (as JP indicates). Kevin had some other alternate bridge changes (e.g. III7 - IV7 - #IV7 - V7) in another thread.

We discussed RCs fairly recently ...

Oh, and the last two bars of the 2nd and last A sections may also be played | I V | I |, or | Bbmaj7 F7 | Bbmaj7 |, if you're in Bb, as in JP's example.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Sailor

So...

Is this still just a re-harm of Bb Bdim Cm7 C#dim....?

Yes ...

Is the Dm7 in meas 3 a sub for Bb...?

If you're thinking/analyzing as I - vi - ii - V, then, yes.

Can the G7 and F7 meas 3 & 4 be dom7b9's...?

Yes. They're dominant 7ths resolving down a 5th. It would be common (but not mandatory ) to play b9s on them.

[JonnyPac]

Nice info guys. I know the changes I posted are outright vanilla; like I said, it's just a simple starting point. I'm glad you took the time to flesh it out for Sailor.

There's a lot that can be done! Perhaps that explains the popularity of the form. I whip up a personal version later today... How I would play it if I got to choose the chord-scales, as opposed to the ones on the page, etc. This will be fun... stay tuned.

Thanks!

[JonnyPac]

A Sections:

Bbmaj13 (Ionian) G7#9b13 (8-note Phryg. dom w #9) | Cm11 F13b9 (dim oct) | Dm7add11 (minor pent) G7#9b13| Cm11 F13b9 | Fm11 Bb13b9 (dim oct) | Ebmaj13 Ab13+11 (Lyd. Dom.) |Dm7add11 G7#9b13 | Cm11 F13b9 |etc.

B Section: something creative and fun... (I usually just play the ii V's if I'm sitting in with a jam combo) These are symmetrical MM's descending...

D13+11 | D13+11 | G7ALT | G7ALT |C13+11 | C13+11 |Cm11 | F13b9 |

[Reg]

Hey M-ster.. yea... years ago I played the Dim. thing both as passing with chromatic function and as V7of target chord with dom function... there different right... On the G# dim7 or #IIdim... did you mean V7/III or were you thinking VI as sub for III or I since there all tonic in the basic diatonic progression. I guess using dom. chord for one could be atypical... but in the last 20 years I rarely hear a maj7 on I... and to hear a I VI- II- V...maybe a R&B cover gig... I mean a lot of horn players notate straight changes... but play them... Sometimes I start with maj. like with Bergonzi's "On The Brink"or Flanagan's "Freight Trane" and similar changes.... but really don't stay there very long... Just different approaches... like I said I did back in late 60's and 70's... I got out of Har. Min as fast as I could and only go back when context gives no choice.... Best Reg

[JonnyPac]

Yeah, I see the dim thing on old charts... C C#dim Dm7 D#dim Em7 and so on. They are just rootless doms, C A7b9 Dm7 B7b9 Em7 (in C, mind you.) HM is very classical sounding. MM is more jazz. Both good, IMO.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey M-ster.. did you mean V7/III ...

Ha! You caught me again. Yes, of course: V7/iii. (I think when I started thinking E7 to Am, I digressed into key of C!) Please come over and proof read my ramblings before I post them, would you?

I try to be diligent and succinct, but, well, you see what happens!

[Sailor]

Interesting that someone picked up on my 2008 question??? This is great advice so far guys...thanks for taking the time and supplying all the analysis!

From our very own Forum "lessons" :

"Here's a variation of the A part that was popular in the swing era:

|Bb B°7 |Cm7 C#°7 |Dm7 G7 |Cm7 F7 |
|Bb Bb7/D |Eb E°7 |Bb/F G7#5 |Cm7 F7 |"

[Sailor]

Oh....and a more modern version under "Jazz lessons" :

"
The following variation of the A part became popular in the bebop era and is the version that is used the most often today:
|Bb G7b9 |Cm7 F7b9 |Dm7 G7b9 |Cm7 F7b9 |
|Fm7 Bb7b9 |Ebmaj7 Ab7#11 |Dm7 G7b9 |Cm7 F7b9 |"


OK...I have a lot to work with and I guess no real consensus on what I'll find when I go to jam with some jazz cats??


Sailor

[JonnyPac]

That looks fine. You'll do well with that. Some cat will inevitably toss in odd changes. Just do your best. I had a pianist at a no-chart jam this past Sunday play this behind my solo on a Bb blues...

I played Bb7 |Fm7 Bb7 | Eb7 |
He played Bb7 |B7 Bb7 | Eb7 | and my sweet little ii V run sounded like shiz.

You can never tell when things like this will hit you until it is too late. If I knew, I would have busted a cool B7 Lydian dom run or something... oh well. They only gave each soloist 12 bars... no second chance. Bummer.

[Sailor]

Haha...I have a hard time believing anything you played sounded like shiz

Thanks for all the help...so far...and BTW, How did you pick up on my THREE year old RC question??

Sailor

[JonnyPac]

Lol! No idea!! It was on top for some reason! I didn't dig.

I didn't see the date. Funny. Well, I hope it helps anyway!

[Sailor]

Oh man...you are funny! AND it just goes to show how lazy I've been in the last 3 years...still talking about the same thing!!

It DOES help, BTW, 'cause there are always new cats on the forum bringing their great advice. Too bad Matt Warnock is gone...got his PhD and haven't seen him since...he was a great teacher and has an excellent website with very hip transcriptions.

Any time you want to chime in with some good jazz/blues....that is where I am at right now

Thanks, sailor

[Kojo27]

Sailor - don't know how much this might help, but be aware, at least, that Frank Vignola and Mel Bay Publications have done about five or six "Rhythm Changes" folios w/demonstration CDs. These are wonderful. They feature large, readable charts of increasingly far-out "I-Got-Rhythm" variations. Volume One is fairly basic, just changes in C and B flat, and then Frank plays some great solos (but accessible, do-able) over these basic changes. Each volume will keep you busy for a month, I'd say, at least - so don't rush. By the time you get to Volume Three, or higher, things are *really* getting wild.

This is one of the most thorough explorations of "Rhythm Changes" that I know of. Someone is selling these volumes on eBay right now, discounted - so check 'em out if they sound like something you could use.

[Sailor]

Thanks Kojo!!

SAailor

[oneworld]

even though written from a bass player's perspective this post by john goldsby gives you a good overview of how to deal with 'rhythm changes':

Practicing Rhythm Changes - TalkBass Forums

[nesexcips]

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