How to start incorporating rootless voicings?

[CyanFusion]

So far in my playing I have stayed well clear of rootless chord voicings and now I would like to start using them, but after learning many chord forms and sinversion with the root, i'm pretty scared about learning a new system (or not)

Any advice?
Cheers, Jack

[brwnhornet59]

Nah, it is easier than you think. I just posted this in another thread.

A good rule of thumb to play 4 note inversion subs, is to play the chord off of the 3rd of the stated chord. ie..

If you want to play a rootless CM7, play E-7, 1,b3,5,b7. This will give you the major 9 sound of C. 3,5,7,9

Rootless D-7, play FM7, 1,3,5,7. This will give you the b3,5,b7,9 of D-7.

Make sense? So now not only are you playing rootless subs with shapes you already know, you are ornamenting the chords with 9ths. No more vanilla.


Get these ideas down, then come back for some more. Have fun!

[brwnhornet59]

Try this. ii V I in C.

D-7/G7/CM7

Now play this: FM7/B-7b5/E-7

If you have to, play the root note over each 4 note voicing until you hear that you are really playing rootless 9 chord subs for the ii V I

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Do you have any tool you can use to record just a bassline? Playing over it would help you hear that Em7 is really CM9.

[JakeAcci]

I think the best way to start out is by playing two note chords on the D and G strings. It will be either 3/7 or 7/3, with some exceptions

A few reasons why:

- The bass player is assumed to be taking care of the root of the chord, and the fifths are non essential tones to the harmonic motion in most of these standards, so all the listener needs to hear, in a sense, is the root, third, and seventh, and the 3/7 adjusted for different chord types (b7 for dominant, b3 for minor, etc.)

- melodies (and the soloist's lines) sometimes have natural 9, sometimes flat 9, sometimes natural fifth sometimes sharp fifth, etc - to start by playing voicings without fifths, ninths, etc, gives a relatively automatic "inside" choice to start with

- it's easy to do this way, and I think it sounds fine. You can go through a whole set just doing this and I feel like it will be appropriate and tasteful. Not flashy, for sure, but I think it's a great way to avoid any ugly moments. (I often have a preference for fewer voices in a chord rather than more)

So Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 could be, in "tab"

Dm7
x
x
5
3
x
x

G7
x
x
4
3
x
x

Cmaj7
x
x
4
2
x
x

or inverted:

Dm7
x
x
10
10
x
x


G7
x
x
10
9
x
x


Cmaj7
x
x
9
9
x
x

I'd strongly suggest going through whole tunes with this concept as well as practicing ii V I and iii VI ii V I in all keys

After a level of comfort is reached so that these grabs are automatic, a note in the B string can be added...it can be a root, fifth, tension/extension, or doubling of 3 or 7...whatever it is, each voicing should lead smoothly to the next, smallest amount of motion between voicings, and the new note added should not conflict with the melody/soloist - ideally it should be...complimentary.

This is how I started and I think it has really opened up the fretboard by way of playing, hearing, and watching actual voices move rather than just going for familiar grabs.

I really believe this to be essential to be able to comp standards on guitar.

After mastery of this idea, I think the next step is drop 2 configurations, as they are quite convenient...

[JonnyPac]

These are some favorites of mine:

Jazz Piano Style Guitar Voicings in Music Theory, Guitar Lessons and Song Writing Tools Forum

I really dig Bill Evans-style voicings, quartal voicings, upper-structures, and other hidden root/rootless voicings. Be sure to bring a bass player to the gig!

[JonnyPac]

Here's a chord-melody of Giant Steps with rootless style voicings:

-14--------7-------6---7---5---------------
-14---15---7---8---6---5---5----------------
-13---14---7---7---5---5---5----------------
-13---14---5---6---5---5---4----------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

-10--------3-------2---3-------6---7---5---
-10---11---3---4---2---1---6---6---5---5---
-9----10---3---3---1---1---5---5---5---5---
-9----10---1---2---1---1---6---5---5---4---
---------------------------5----------------
---------------------------------------------

-10---11---9---14---15---15---18---11---11---
-10---9----9---14---13---13---18---9----9---
-9----9----9---13---13---13---17---9----9---
-9----9----8---13---13---12---17---9----8---
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I think the best way to start out is by playing two note chords on the D and G strings. It will be either 3/7 or 7/3, with some exceptions

I just finished Part 1 of Fareed Haque's JAZZ COMPING SURVIVAL GUIDE and his entire approaching to comping is built off of these "color" or "guide tones".

He says by playing these two color tones (3,7) you can be pretty safe, for the same reasons you mention...always giving yourself something to do instead of just laying out.

He then goes on to add one and two extensions and bass notes...and much more. Much to learn.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

I just finished Part 1 of Fareed Haque's JAZZ COMPING SURVIVAL GUIDE and his entire approaching to comping is built off of these "color" or "guide tones".

He says by playing these two color tones (3,7) you can be pretty safe, for the same reasons you mention...always giving yourself something to do instead of just laying out.

He then goes on to add one and two extensions and bass notes...and much more. Much to learn.

I'm glad to hear someone else is teaching this approach. I know I have a tendency to get dogmatic, but this seems like a no-brainer as the most efficient way to get somebody comfortable with basic comping enough to actually play a gig. It's visual, it's simple, it sounds good as opposed to cluttered and messy. And, yes, safe!

[JonnyPac]

Sounds like "shell" aka "Bud Powell" voicings. Very safe and useful.

[brwnhornet59]

Digging Deeper: Learning Tunes in Three Dimensions - Premier Guitar


Yeah, Matt and Morten have both stressed learning 3rd 7th voicings for varying reasons.

Juian Lage has an excellent article in Premier Guitar, on how he learns tunes. He talks about learning the melody and bass line, then lastly the harmony. As it grows the inner working of the tune becomes very apparent and quite manageable. It is a great way to learn CM and versatile. The main point I wanted to make with this is that most of the harmony is reflected with 3rd 7th. It is a lesson that we could all learn from. Sometimes less is more.

[brwnhornet59]

Digging Deeper: Learning Tunes in Three Dimensions - Premier Guitar


Yeah, Matt and Morten have both stressed using 3rd 7th voicings for varying reasons.

Juian Lage has an excellent article in Premier Guitar, on how he learns tunes. He talks about learning the melody and bass line, then lastly the harmony. As it grows the inner working of the tune becomes very apparent and quite manageable. It is a great way to learn CM and versatile. The point I wanted to make with this is that most of the harmony is reflected with 3rd 7th. It is a lesson that we could all learn from. Sometimes less is more.

[cosmic gumbo]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Digging Deeper: Learning Tunes in Three Dimensions - Premier Guitar


Yeah, Matt and Morten have both stressed using 3rd 7th voicings for varying reasons.

Juian Lage has an excellent article in Premier Guitar, on how he learns tunes. He talks about learning the melody and bass line, then lastly the harmony. As it grows the inner working of the tune becomes very apparent and quite manageable. It is a great way to learn CM and versatile. The point I wanted to make with this is that most of the harmony is reflected with 3rd 7th. It is a lesson that we could all learn from. Sometimes less is more.

If it's worth saying twice, it's worth saying three times. This is essential, fundamental stuff that all need to know thoroughly.

[onetruevibe]

I'll tell you one thing...it sure saved my butt. I'm a blues guy who was given an opportunity to play with a jazz combo...I stumbled on this approach to comping, bought the $20 lesson pack from TrueFire, put in the hours, and I was saved! I kept it way inside and safe, staying out of everyone's way while adding some subtle textures...it got me invited back! Now I'm working on making it legit.

This forum is incredible...I read posts during breaks at work (sans guitar) and find myself screaming to get back home and work it all out.

Thanks guys for all your contributions, and I hope someday to be able to pay it forward.

Brian

[jtizzle]

Haven't read the rest of the posts, but the way I do it is pretty simple. Do you know where the chord tones are in your voicings? like, where the 5th, and root are (those are the two important ones to know for this).

Then what you do is take the root, alter it for any 9th (b9, natural 9, #9) and/or take the 5th and alter it for any 13th (b13, natural 13), or any 11 (b11 in case of m3, natural 11, #11) or alter the 5th itself (b5, #5). Takes some time, maybe you might want to memorize some chord lines doing this at first, but it's easy to get the hang of it.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Digging Deeper: Learning Tunes in Three Dimensions - Premier Guitar


Yeah, Matt and Morten have both stressed learning 3rd 7th voicings for varying reasons.

Juian Lage has an excellent article in Premier Guitar, on how he learns tunes. He talks about learning the melody and bass line, then lastly the harmony. As it grows the inner working of the tune becomes very apparent and quite manageable. It is a great way to learn CM and versatile. The main point I wanted to make with this is that most of the harmony is reflected with 3rd 7th. It is a lesson that we could all learn from. Sometimes less is more.

This is something my teacher has always stressed, and I also realized that Martin Taylor has the same basic approach. Nice to see Lage agrees.

Instead of trying to automatically "fit" the tune to various chord inversions, learn the melody and root progression. Then add the other voices, like musical "seasoning". Salt to taste.

[Nicole Anderson]

Well, well, well...the 3/7 technique is the same concept that my piano teacher stressed...after being a vocalist first, then comping chords on the guitar, learning piano, playing blues pretty well on guitar, going back to piano, realizing that I could only go so far on piano, back to guitar, all of the sudden, I am playing some really beautiful melody lines and can play most standards by ear (after laying out the chords on my JAMMER PRO "band in a box") Even though to the average listener the end product is great, I realized that I was just "faking it" (although not really as I was already using some of the shell voicings instinctively) Anyway, I started searching around for some theory and found this forum. I will be trying out some of these concepts on my tunes tomorrow. Working on Begin the Beguine, Desafinado, Autumn Leaves, All of Me, Over the Rainbow Manha de Carnaval and Misty.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by Nicole Anderson

I will be trying out some of these concepts on my tunes tomorrow. Working on Begin the Beguine, Desafinado, Autumn Leaves, All of Me, Over the Rainbow Manha de Carnaval and Misty.

Great. You will find that every concept will give you new insight. That keeps thing fresh. I dig the tunes you are working on. Desafinado is an awesome Jobim tune. Lots of modal interchange going on in it. Keep us posted on your progress!



BTW, Welcome to the forums!

[wizard3739]

Welcome aboard, Nicole! I like your choice of tunes to work on. You will find many new things to work on this forum.

wiz