Please help me analyse a progression!

hed_b94 · #1 12-25-2011, 08:12 AM

gingerjazz · #2 12-25-2011, 03:17 PM

Could you please tell us a bit more about what it is you are confused about and where you got this progression from,also are you aware that a Db7b5 and a Db7#11 contain the same notes.A b5 and a #11 amount to the same note,the only difference is the terminology used which is down to context.It would also help if you could give an indication of your level of understanding with regard to music theory so people can taylor their answer to suit your level of understanding.Hope to hear from you soon .Peace.

hed_b94 · #3 12-26-2011, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gingerjazz

Could you please tell us a bit more about what it is you are confused about and where you got this progression from,also are you aware that a Db7b5 and a Db7#11 contain the same notes.A b5 and a #11 amount to the same note,the only difference is the terminology used which is down to context.It would also help if you could give an indication of your level of understanding with regard to music theory so people can taylor their answer to suit your level of understanding.Hope to hear from you soon .Peace.

They may contain the same notes chord-wise (but may also not, because in the #11 you can have a perfect fifth), but they have different meaning if we try to understand the tonal center, or if we try to find the proper scale to improvise on. Also, they have improtance if we want to add extensions. the #11 should get a major 9, and b5 is supposed to get altered 9th's.

I'm not sure how to 'messure' my understanding. I think I'm ok. I know traditional harmony, I read through Mark Levine's and Bert Ligon theory books.
The problem I'm having here is finding the key, or tonal center. maybe there isn't one.

hed_b94 · #4 12-26-2011, 12:04 PM

............
It's the lead sheet of an arranement of a tune you don't know (it's not a jazz tune).

Before this part begins, there is an A part, which is the same as
Bbmaj7 Bdim | Ebm7 Ab7b9 |Dbmaj7 Dbm7|
F#sus7 F#13 | Bmaj7 Bdim | Cm7 F7b9

only transposed to Eb major.

max_power · #5 12-26-2011, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hed_b94

As someone mentioned, a dom7b5 chord is usually synonymous with a 7#11 chord, even though THEORETICALLY they should be different. For example, in the first bar it is clear that the A7b5 is a tritone sub; it should therefore be written as an A7#11 (or even just an A7, since the #11 is implied by the fact that it's a tritone sub).

First two bars:
Bb-7 A7 Abmaj7
ii7 bII7(#11) | Imaj7

Then we have some dominant chords leading downwards. The first change is chromatic (Gb7 to F7), and then the chords descend by a whole step:

Gb7 | F7 | Eb7 | Db7 | Gbmaj7

The target here is the Gbmaj7 chord. In jazz it's easy to get flustered by a progression such as this because it seems so illogical (where's our trusty circle of fifths?). If it helps, you could add some V's to make it easier to understand:

Gb7 | F7 [Bb7] | Eb7 [Ab7] | Db7 | Gbmaj7

VII7 III7 VI7 II7 V7 Imaj7

The Gb7 can be seen as a tritone sub leading to the F7; the rest of the progression can be understood better if looked at with the added chords because it follows the circle of fifths. You could imply these chords in your improvisation if you want...personally, I don't really use these added chords, but I find that it helps in mentally processing a progression involving dominants descending by whole steps (it DOES make sense!).

Next we've got this:
Bbm7 Eb7 | F13 |Fsus7 | Bbmaj7

The first bar could be analyzed in a couple of ways...I suppose you could look at it as a i7 IV7 V7 Imaj7; however, in the context of the tune it probably wouldn't be viewed this way. Keep in mind that at this point we're in the key of Gbmaj7 (as indicated by the chords leading up to the Bbm7). Therefore, the Bbm7 is going to be heard as a iii7 chord. Basically, in the first bar we have a deceptive ii-V that leads to an F7 instead of the anticipated Abmaj7. It's kind of hard to explain why this makes sense; in terms of the theory, I honestly don't know how to explain it. In practice though, it's not uncommon. For example, the tune Stella By Starlight is chock full of deceptive ii-V cadences that don't resolve to the I chord. Anyways, the F7 takes us to a V-I resolving to the Bbmaj7.

So now to the B part:
Bbmaj7 Bdim | Cm7 F7b9 | Bbmaj7 Bdim | Ebm7 Ab7b9 |Dbmaj7 Dbm7|
F#sus7 F#13 | Bmaj7 Bdim | Cm7 F7b9 | Bmaj7 | A7b5

As you mentioned OP, the first two bars are like a I-VI-ii-V. The third bar is the same as the first, except that the Bdim leads to a ii-V-I into Db major. The Bdim functions like a VI7 in Bb major in the first bar; in the third bar, it functions like a VI7 in Db major. Ah, the ambiguity of diminished chords.

I actually have to go right now, but I can finish the rest later if you like...hopefully what I've written is of some use to you.

brwnhornet59 · #6 12-26-2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hed_b94

Here is my take , from what little info I have.

The first 7 chords are pretty straight forward. You are seeing modal interchange and secondary dom's as well as a little back cycling using Ab and Ab MM. It is a ii V I with the V chords being the tritone sub of Eb dom. The Gb 7 is a bVII7, you see this a lot. We are still in Ab.

F7 is a secondary dom, VI7,

Db7#11 is IV7 #11, straight out of Ab MM.

GbM7 is another form of the bVII we saw earlier, this ii V action is creating movement and interest as it cycles again in another ii V, Bb-7, Eb7. Notice is does not resolve to Ab but to F13, this is a classic backdoor turn around, F13 is still VI7, leading us into the key of Bb.

BbM7, B dim, C-7, F7b9

I consider the B dim to be the first inversion of a rootless VI7b9, (G7b9).
the F7b9 can nicely be resolved using the F alt scale. I am analyzing these changes the same way as before.

Ebm7 Ab7b9 |Dbmaj7 Dbm7|
F#sus7 F#13 | Bmaj7 Bdim | Cm7 F7b9 | Bmaj7 | A7b5

Now a little back cycling to BM7. Bmaj7, Bdim, (rootless G7b9), Bb-7 gives a nice chromatic walk down to another ii V, C-7 F7b9

I have to ask is that last Bmaj7 really Bbmaj7?

Hope this helped some.

hed_b94 · #7 12-26-2011, 12:38 PM

Thank you. The real problem for me is those dominants resolving by a whole step down, which, as you said, seems illogical.
Usually I'm pretty good at hearing tonal centers, and how chords function, but here I'm blank!

I think that F7 going to Fsus7 is just another modulation.

Thanks again, I'm still interested in other ways of looking at the dominants resolving whole step down. I guess it's some sort of modal thing.....

Edit -
thanks brwnhornet. I think I agree with you, that the Ab is still the tonal center and it's just alot of modal intercharge, until the Bbmaj7.

That last Bmajor7 is correct. that part I actually do get... it's a bIImajor7. usually happens when the sopran is the root or the fifth (of the original chord supposed to be there - Bbmaj7.)

thanks again!