How to know which chord this is?

[JazzFanatik]

Trying to practice this number system with chords, and naming them by numbers so i can transpose easier etc.

Sometimes I come across a chord that's not necessarily in the key that the song is in. For example in 'all of me' the first four chords are:
Cmaj7-E7-A7-Dm7

I know that those notes are all in Cmaj, but usually I thought that E and A would be minor instead of dominant, right?

So then I thought well maybe E is just the secondary dominant of A and then A is the secondary dominant of D, so maybe they're both passing chords just to get to the Dm7?

So anyways my question is if you were to try and number these, would you think of them as:
Cmaj-E7-A7-Dm7
I-iii7-vi7-iim7
OR
I-V(of VI)-V(of ii)-iim7

Am I making any sense at all? LOL Maybe i'm over thinking it....

[fep]

I'd take choice number two: I-V(of VI)-V(of ii)-iim7

But I prefer just: I III7 VI7 IIm7

I think that is such a common progression that it is it's own animal, so that's why I analyze it that way.

[JakeAcci]

No I know what you are asking and it's a very important question.

They are dominant chords to lead to the next chord, and you could simply write

I III7 VI7 ii7

uppercase with a 7 to mean dominant, lowercase with a 7 to mean minor seventh chord.

Verbally we might say: You have the I chord, then the V of VI, then the V of II, then ii7.

Also: Secondary dominant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ...E7 and A7 are secondary dominants in the key of C!

P.S. I've seen different accepted ways of writing minor seventh chords: ii7, IIm7, II-7, and lastly iim7 or ii-7 would be redundant but...

[JazzFanatik]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

No I know what you are asking and it's a very important question.

They are dominant chords to lead to the next chord, and you could simply write

I III7 VI7 ii7

uppercase with a 7 to mean dominant, lowercase with a 7 to mean minor seventh chord.

Verbally we might say: You have the I chord, then the V of VI, then the V of II, then ii7.

Also: Secondary dominant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ...E7 and A7 are secondary dominants in the key of C!

P.S. I've seen different accepted ways of writing minor seventh chords: ii7, IIm7, II-7, and lastly iim7 or ii-7 would be redundant but...

Thank you! Also, i did NOT know to uppercase the dominant letters so thank you for that correction!

[JonnyPac]

Again, I'd suggest learning secondary dominants, neighboring and parallel keys. Many of your recent explorations in progressions will be answered.

[JazzFanatik]

yeah I've been reading about them, pretty cool. thank you!

[JonnyPac]

Here's a cheat sheet:

http://jonnypac.weebly.com/uploads/7...599126.jpg?701

[HighSpeedSpoon]

Originally Posted by fep

I'd take choice number two: I-V(of VI)-V(of ii)-iim7

But I prefer just: I III7 VI7 IIm7

I think that is such a common progression that it is it's own animal, so that's why I analyze it that way.

I like this answer best. It's true that understanding the concept of secondary dominants is useful, but it's also a bit complicated for the stage you seem to be at. Just understanding that that you are following the cycle of fifths (e.g., C -->F -->Bb -->Eb --> ... G -->C) will be more useful for now. BTW, you may see progressions like these described as "back-cycling": some number of dominant 7ths that lead up to a ii7-V7-I resolution.

[JonnyPac]

I'd treat them different depending on where they are in a key and what the upcoming chord is. V7/vi or III7 makes sense for the E7. Using A HM (E Phrygian dominant) over the E7 is the most "inside" choice, etc. Mixolydian sounds wrong (the progression at hand is V7 of Am, not a A Major), and the P5 is in the melody which rules out E ALT (has no B natural).

Sames goes for the A7 leading to Dm. It's V7/ii (not VI7, IMHO). D HM (A Phrygian Dom) is the inside choice from the neighboring key of Dm (F Major).

dom7b9b13's are cool over them to jazz it up without going outside.