Comping with a pianist

[SammieWammie]

What exactly can a guitarist do when there's a pianist taking care of the comping, and there's the pianist or saxophonist or whoever taking a solo? I have been told one can do long chords while the other does more percussive rhythmic things, but I'm not sure. I have heard Wes play very quietly behind the pianist in Smokin' At the Half Note, some octaves as well. There's always the option of sitting on your hands, but what else? Also what's a group I can listen to to get ideas how to make it work?

[rictroll]

When in doubt lay out

[SammieWammie]

I do that, however that means I'm laying out a lot.

[rictroll]

Me, too!

[rictroll]

Dyads are a workable strategy.

And sometimes it's harder to stay out of the way rhythmically than harmonically.

[Gerard45]

The late guitarist Wim Overgaauw:

Like Someone In Love - Rita Reys - YouTube

[Jake Hanlon]

it's your chance to get a beer at the bar

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by SammieWammie

I do that, however that means I'm laying out a lot.

Good time to do ear training with the sax solo or review your grocery list

[TruthHertz]

Anyone heard of air guitar? Air comping, mimic the pianists lines on air guitar. Works every time.
David

[cjm]

Originally Posted by SammieWammie

What exactly can a guitarist do when there's a pianist taking care of the comping, and there's the pianist or saxophonist or whoever taking a solo? I have been told one can do long chords while the other does more percussive rhythmic things, but I'm not sure. I have heard Wes play very quietly behind the pianist in Smokin' At the Half Note, some octaves as well. There's always the option of sitting on your hands, but what else? Also what's a group I can listen to to get ideas how to make it work?

What's the setting? What sort of jazz is it? What rhythms?

The obvious answer (which unfortunately doesn't always fit -- but it often does) is to turn down the volume and play a bit of swing rhythm. Depends on the group...the drummer..the bass...the repertoire...

...but if you keep it quiet -- almost "subliminal" -- two and three note voicings mostly -- it can work pretty well in most "straight ahead" jazz situations. I mean, there's a time and place to really hit it on rhythm, but if it's a situation you're not certain about, it's a safe bet to stay fairly low and very much in the background.

Wednesday night was pretty quiet. Sort of an open mic night and a young guy -- very talented music major -- wanted to set in -- and I was tired so I let him have the last hour while I put my feet up and downed a few.

The thing that struck me is that despite the fact that he's a senior in a good university program and has good single note lines (a damned sight better than mine) -- he has no clue as to what he might do when he isn't soloing. It came off as awkward when he just laid out...didn't work to pluck "rhythm" finger style with six string block chords...a little bit of soft swing rhythm would have come across nicely.

But that's obviously something that doesn't get practiced much in a lot of music programs.

[colduc]

is this something that just happens by default? i've met more than a few pianists who comp through everything out of habit, never giving others a chance to be the "main" comper for a while. it can be frustrating, but if you bring it up, they should be willing to split things (e.g. trade places every other choruses, soloist, etc). that lets you both get a fair share.

also i've found sparse ideas like dyads (sixths, tenths, octaves in particular) work well against another comper and the soloist. i also like playing very simple phrases, usually based around the 3rd or 7th, low in the mix for a counterpoint-like effect that adds some depth while not getting in the way.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by colduc

is this something that just happens by default? i've met more than a few pianists who comp through everything out of habit, never giving others a chance to be the "main" comper for a while. it can be frustrating, but if you bring it up, they should be willing to split things (e.g. trade places every other choruses, soloist, etc). that lets you both get a fair share.

also i've found sparse ideas like dyads (sixths, tenths, octaves in particular) work well against another comper and the soloist. i also like playing very simple phrases, usually based around the 3rd or 7th, low in the mix for a counterpoint-like effect that adds some depth while not getting in the way.

We're talking about a piano player. Nothing short of a pistol will get a piano player to back off, and even then you may have to shoot him in the leg.

[mr. beaumont]

Study those Jim Hall/Bill Evans records.

Yep, I spend a lot of time backing off...we all secretly want to be horn players anyway, right? They ain't gotta comp for nobody!

I did play with a really cool piano player once who'd occaisonally solo "right handed."

[Dark Star]

At first glance I thought the thread title was "Coping with a pianist", lol
After reading the posts I think maybe I was right

[SammieWammie]

Had a nice little laugh at your replies here. The setting is piano, drums, bass, sax and me on guitar. Repertoire is still being put together, we just got our proper group together, and we had to teach the bassist how to walk (not enough people play jazz!). I'll work on some of those ideas. Does anybody know of a group like this I can listen to what the guitarist does in other solos?

[SammieWammie]

BRAINWAVE! No idea how this would go down but comping trading 4's or 8's, behind another soloist. As in piano comps 4 bars, guitar comps 4, and so on. Anybody try this?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by SammieWammie

BRAINWAVE! No idea how this would go down but comping trading 4's or 8's, behind another soloist. As in piano comps 4 bars, guitar comps 4, and so on. Anybody try this?

Absolutely.

We gave you a lot of jokey answers, but really, there's nothing wrong with arranging some of these things ahead of time, especially when you have a group that's going to be the same group of musicians playing together consistently...talk to the piano player...he might be dying for a break!

[SmoothOperator]

What about two guitarists? I played with a combo 3 guitars a piano, bass and myself on drums. We did have to find creative things for that second and third guitar to do. It gets old watching the soloists.

1) Doubling the bass on the low strings.
2) Playing on the upbeat, while others play on the down beat.
3) Playing the turn around on the form, while the others play the form.
4) Adding accents like the drummer.
5) Arranged counter points.
6) Freddy green style time keeping.

Anyway you do it you have to create space. Rhythmically don't let your chords ring too long, harmonically find a range where you don't walk on your fellow musicians etc.

[AmundLauritzen]

Pianists I have played with are compulsive compers. It is impossible to find a compromise. I think laying out is the only option. Sure, you can ask him to lay out, but you'll get a nasty look and it will sound awkward when the piano dimension suddenly disappears from the music. Freddie Green always works but it sounds very cheesy to my ears. We guitarists also secretly want to be piano players, and the pianists don't like that.
What about organ trios? I know organists voice chords differently due the sound of their instrument.
Pat Martino plays really muddy chords when he is comping, but it always works, even with Joey D laying down chords at the same time!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

YouTube Video

In this interview, Jim Hall says of his duets with Bill Evans, that Bill heard him and stopped playing with his left hand when he heard Jim comping. There, that was easy!