notation b5 #11 question for major chords

[thrush40]

Hi there,

I only somewhat understand the theory here. For example, if I write: A G C# I'm probably going to write D# (not Eb) for the next note and call it A7#11, right? I imagine this depends somewhat, if not entirely, on context. Out of context I know it's a tri-tone.

When you all play #11 chords do you ever also voice the perfect 5th below the 7th? If I were to see A7b5 I know not to play a perfect 5th.

If I use write/play chords like my example above: root, 7, 3, aug4/dim5, how do I know which is the best way to notate them?

Thanks!
Ben

[M-ster]

Your basic question is one of context. The notation/name of the chord is dependent upon what precedes and what follows the chord.

Experienced guys will know and interpret the chord appropriately whether you notate it as A7b5 or A7(#11).

Personally, I'm not super hung up on it; but, technically, the "b5" suggests an altered chord-scale (where one might add b9, #9, or b13) while the "#11" suggests a Lydian dominant chord-scale (where one might add natural 9 or 13).

So, if you write | A7b5 | Abmaj7 |, I'm going to treat that A7 with 9, #11, or 13, regardless. If you write | A7(#11) | D-(add 9) |, I'm likely to treat the A7 as altered, regardless.

It's context. (It's also voice leading, taste, and experience, of course; but that's another discussion.)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I agree: it's context because lots of folks are lazy when it comes to chord notation.

And you seem to be talking about dominant chords, not "major". With a major seventh chord it is nearly always a #11, and I like the sound of the perfect fifth against that:

GMaj7(#11): 35x422

[JakeAcci]

I see b5 being written where #11 seems more appropriate, but I don't often see #11 written where b5 seems more appropriate.

[Franklin52]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I see b5 being written where #11 seems more appropriate, but I don't often see #11 written where b5 seems more appropriate.

But b5 implies a flat 5 (not to play a perfect 5) and #11 a raised 11 with possibly a perfect 5 no?

[thrush40]

Thank you, M-ster. Understanding the implications for the 9th and 13th is very helpful. I was indeed asking about dominate chords, not Maj7 chords.

I was reading somewhere that if the chord/melody movement is downward, it often gets notated as b5, whereas if the movement is upwards, it gets notated as #11. I see that this is not a very good way to think about it. For example, the last six bars of My Funny Valentine have a descending bass line (C, Bb, A, Ab) with tension against the melody Eb and the notated chords are l C- l Bb-7 A7(#11)l Abmaj7 l F-7 Bb7(b9) l Eb6 l

What about in a progression that I've written: Abmaj7 l C#b5 l Bb7(b9) l G- etc (in the key of Eb). Would it be better as C#7(#11), or is more information, like melody line needed?

Or how do I interpret this possible progression from Over the Rainbow in Eb (last phrase of the verses, "there's a land that I heard of.." etc:
l F-7 Ab-7 Db7 l G-7 C7alt l B7b5 Bb7(b9) l Ebmaj7 l
Is is B7(#11) instead? Or again is there more context required.

If I'm asking too much, giving too little information to be helpful, please let me know.

Taking a third example from a different tune, when I play Ain't Misbehavin' (transposed to the key of C) I play the last bar before the turn around like this (from "ain't misbehavin', savin' my love, etc):
l Cmaj7 Eb7(9) l D-7 C#7b5 l E7(9) A7 l D7(9) G7 l
Is it working differently in this context?

Thanks again!

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by Franklin52

b5 implies a flat 5 (no perfect 5) and #11 a raised 11 with possibly a perfect 5

+1

Interesting thing about the scale choices mentioned by M-ster, but also intuitive.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by thrush40

... the last six bars of My Funny Valentine have a descending bass line (C, Bb, A, Ab) with tension against the melody Eb and the notated chords are l C- l Bb-7 A7(#11)l Abmaj7 l F-7 Bb7(b9) l Eb6 l

I'd leave this one as is.

What about in a progression that I've written: Abmaj7 l C#b5 l Bb7(b9) l G- etc (in the key of Eb). Would it be better as C#7(#11), or is more information, like melody line needed?

Given key of Eb and these changes, I'd suggest that your C#b5 is really Db7(#11). (But, of course, as the composer, if you write a melody that suggests otherwise, you win. Composer trumps all. )

Or how do I interpret this possible progression from Over the Rainbow in Eb (last phrase of the verses, "there's a land that I heard of.." etc:
l F-7 Ab-7 Db7 l G-7 C7alt l B7b5 Bb7(b9) l Ebmaj7 l
Is is B7(#11) instead? Or again is there more context required.

Hmm ... because of the melody, I'd suggest | F-7 / Ab-7 Db7 | Eb(add9)/G / G-7/C C7alt | B7(#11) / Bb7(b9) | Ebmaj7 ...

I'm trying to technically accommodate the melody in the second bar. The 3rd bar is the most classic (IMHO) appearance of the "b5" usage -- i.e., when it's a b5 substitution, as this B7 subs for F7 in a string of V7 of V7 of V7. In other words, right or wrong, you'll almost always see this notated as B7b5 to Bb7. (Note, too, that the melody in bar 3 is F, D, Eb, F, G, for which you might argue it's B7alt! I think it's more typical, though, when it looks like bVI7 to V7 to I of some type, to treat it Lydian dominant, altered, to whatever. YMMV.)

Taking a third example from a different tune, when I play Ain't Misbehavin' (transposed to the key of C) I play the last bar before the turn around like this (from "ain't misbehavin', savin' my love, etc):
l Cmaj7 Eb7(9) l D-7 C#7b5 l E7(9) A7 l D7(9) G7 l
Is it working differently in this context?

Aren't the lyrics "... my love for ..." over your C#7b5? As such, I'm getting A, A, G in the melody, which would imply altered for your C#7; however, that sounds like a forced harmony to me (which is fine if you like it). Were the first two bars originally | C C#o7 | D-7 D#o7 |? This could also become C A7 | D-7 B7 | etc.

[thrush40]

M-ster. Thank you so much for taking the time to thoroughly address my questions and examples! I will take the time tonight (after work) to review these. After which, I think I need to step back from the theory and just practice!

BTW, I'm not sure the composer always wins. This morning I read in the NY Times about Hélène Grimaud and Claudio Abbado cancelling concerts due to a rift over a credenza. Abbado wanted her to play the credenza Mozart had written. She wanted to keep the credenza she played, composed by Busoni (and used by Horowitz) for the Mozart piece. Her gig. He lost. Special situation I know. Still, your point was not lost. Have a great day!

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by thrush40

M-ster. Thank you so much for taking the time to thoroughly address my questions and examples!

You are welcome, Mr. thrush40!

BTW, I'm not sure the composer always wins. This morning I read in the NY Times about Hélène Grimaud and Claudio Abbado cancelling concerts due to a rift over a credenza. Abbado wanted her to play the credenza Mozart had written. She wanted to keep the credenza she played, composed by Busoni (and used by Horowitz) for the Mozart piece. Her gig. He lost. Special situation I know. Still, your point was not lost. Have a great day!

I'm pretty sure you mean to say "cadenza," but, no worries. I got it!

Great day to you, as well.

[thrush40]

Originally Posted by M-ster

You are welcome, Mr. thrush40!



I'm pretty sure you mean to say "cadenza," but, no worries. I got it!

Great day to you, as well.

Oh Good Grief!!! Yes. What that me or was that spell check?

[bako]

I first learned to build chords by modifying the notes according to a formula.

C7---C E G Bb
C7+--C E G# Bb
C7b5-C E Gb Bb

CMa7--C E G B
CMa7+--C E G# B
CMa7b5-C E Gb B

Seemed simple but when looking for the scales that the 7b5 and Ma7b5 chords are derived from I noticed that it is frequently a #4 and not b5.
Personally I am a bit loose with the b5/#11 distinction (my bad) as are many charts but musicians are used to this.
The correct naming better steers the players to scale choices.

Here's a list of modes and scales that contain either a b5 or #4.
I placed ??? mark next to a few that I am unsure how they are regarded and it would be great if someone in the know could clarify this or correct any other errors that you spot.

Major

1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8---------------------------Ma7#11
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 8----------------------m7b5

Melodic Minor

1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7 8---------------------------Ma7+#11
1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 8----------------------------7th#11
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 8--------------------------m7b5
1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 8------------------------technically a b5 but since we frequently consider b4 as 3...7b5???

Harmonic Minor

1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7 8----------------------------m7b5
1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7 8-----------------------------m7#11
1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7 8------------------------------Ma7#11
1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7 8------------------------dim

Harmonic Major

1 2 b3 4 b5 6 b7 8------------------------------m7b5
1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7 8--------------------------------mMa7#11
1 #2 3 #4 #5 6 7 8------------------------------Ma7+#11
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7 8----------------------------dim

Whole Tone (whole tone is always messy spelling a 6 note scale with 7 letters)

1 2 3 #4 #5 b7 8 or 1 2 3 b5 b6 b7 8-------------7+#11 or 7b5b13

Blues Scale

1 b3 4 b5 5 b7 8--------------------------------------7#9b5????
(I call it a 7th because it is frequently played over a 7th chord with the Major 3rd)

Diminished (8 note scale with 7 letters)

1 b2 b3 b4 b5 5 6 b7 8-------------------------------13#9/b9/b5????
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7 8----------------------------------dim or dimMa7

Anyway I thought that writing this out, hopefully with someone adding the supplementary comments might go a ways to lay out the issues involved in this question.

[JakeAcci]

Bako, my familiarity with chord and scale naming lines up with your chart. The m7#11 is kind of rare, I also feel comfortable calling it a #4 for some reason.

[bako]

For melodic minor VII, I was taught to build this as a chord in 4ths to find the chord sound that bests represents the scale harmony.

C Fb Bb Eb Ab Db Gb becomes C E Bb D# Ab Db Gb---C7/#9/b13/b9/b5

Ex. In that scale: b3----#9 // b4----3 // b5----???

#9 to me was a sound that I first learned from the blues scale as a b3 and I end up spelling it b3 melodically sometimes and #9 chordally.

Because b5 follows what is considered 3, I feel unclear.

Calling it Alt avoids the issue, but if itemizing, is the convention b5 or #11 for this one?

[JakeAcci]

For me, definitely b5. Being practical, there is no 4th in the scale.

I don't see any practical problem with considering that scale just a convenient group of tensions on a dominant...b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7. Doesn't bother me that there is no 6 or 4 in that spelling.

Is there a practical situation where it would be really important to have specific spellings in arabic numerals?

Random tangent however... the first time I was taught melodic minor harmony was in a classroom. question to the class "what is a C interval for B?" (b2) "what is a D interval for B?" (b3) "what is an Eb interval for B?" I said "...flatted fourth?" and the teacher laughed at me, because, duh, it's a third.

If he hadn't been such a jerk wad we would have stumbled upon something useful...that the altered scale could be spelled 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7...all flats except the root.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by thrush40

Over the Rainbow in Eb (last phrase of the verses, "there's a land that I heard of.." etc:
l F-7 Ab-7 Db7 l G-7 C7alt l B7b5 Bb7(b9) l Ebmaj7 l
Is is B7(#11) instead? Or again is there more context required.

I actually hear that B7 as potentially having b5, #5, 13, and #9...screw the conventional chord scales! 1 #9 3 b5 #5 13 b7

[Reg]

If we get technical... the spelling would reflect where the chord is from... the harmonic source.... it can become somewhat complicated...
First one would need to know what that harmonic source is. Which requires an analysis. Not what we hear over the changes... what the composer hears over the changes. What or how the composer organized his harmonic approach, which should reflect where the chords are from and how should be notated.
Different harmonic schemes... or the organizational concept(s) which governs how the chords are derived and how they function... don't always agree with typical chord patterns... with typical spellings.
With standard Jazz practice of Modal Interchange and modal style of guide lines controlling function and resolutions... The spelling of chord structures can have what appears to be harmonic conflicts.
So this "context" as we like to say... can be very layered... which can become very complicated at first glance... with out understanding...what's going on harmonically.(melodically, rhythmically etc...)
Many times the chord spellings are not right or wrong, simply what the composers concept reflects.
There are many other concepts which can influence how changes are spelled, besides harmonic source. Melodic, even rhythmically derived concepts... then when we mix concepts, pedals, line cliches etc...
So that's the big picture.... who really gives a sh**... who really understands... not many. Anyway what usually happens is we fit the harmonic scheme into a typical chord pattern which we can all hear and understand and go from there. We see what's before and what's after and try and again... fit harmony into what we know. Most of these chord patterns are from old standards, fall into more standard traditional or classical harmonic concepts and practice. Again no wrong or right, actually if you don't have those together... it's really required. That's the beginning, music 101... part of what you can use as references.
So when we, you notate changes... you should... as best you can reflect what you want to be going on harmonically. How you spell or notate the changes gives us the information we need to play in a jazz style. It's not simply the actual chord symbol, it's how we'll approach.
Jazz notation implies much more than that simple chord symbol... we as jazz players don't just play that one chord... we play chord patterns from implied harmonic areas implied from that one chord. One chord can become a collection of chords... The same process happens when we solo... we pull from the melody and the changes and what they imply... which can have influences on where we go...
This may sound somewhat complicated... but it's just like reading the one chord symbol and being aware of what's the 7th or 9th etc... just more levels of awareness.
I'm aware that I don't give very black and white answers, but there are more levels, (colors), always going on. Reg