Mickey Baker book 1 application

[MikeJ]

Hi

I have been working slowly thru the first half of book 1 and really need to start learning to apply these chord changes to actual songs etc.

I have recently joined a Trad Jazz practice group consisting of Piano, Bass, Drums, Banjo, Cello, 2x Sax/clarinet , 1 Trombone and 2x trumpets and me on Guitar.

So far they play seem to pretty straight and cycle tru the head with minimal improvisation (it more a bunch of 50-70 year olds having fun).

I am basically using this as an opportunity to play with others and learn to get my rhythm playing up to scratch.

My question is can I simply try to apply the MB suggested changes to the chords ie

original C///|E7///|Am///|Fmi///|
with Cma7/Cma6/|Bmi7/Bmi6/|Amin7/Amin6/|Fmin7/Fmin6/|

or whatever seems best (by my ear) to fit the song or do I need to warn the Bass, Piano and Banjo that I will be doing something a little different or just rely on their ear?

My aim is to get these concepts under the fingers but i don't want to cause a train wreck etc.. How much freedom/liberty would you take in this environment

[Drumbler]

You may have to leave the bass note out.

And be nice to the piano player. If he's comping too you could take a nap.

[MikeJ]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

You may have to leave the bass note out.

And be nice to the piano player. If he's comping too you could take a nap.

Hi Drumbler..
True re the Bass..

Not sure yet about the piano player.. he sounds a bit like a one man band and is trying to do it all. however thats something to work on down the track.

And me being the newbie in the band will keep quiet for a while..ish

[wolflen]

if the piano is playing full harmony..you can just "accent" some of the chords..on the off beat, if it works...

[MikeJ]

Thanks Wolflen
What I am really trying to figure out is how much liberty can one take with jazzing up the chords and substituting etc (in line with the MB recommendations) without forewarning the other members etc. Its a large group and my role is really more 4 to the bar style. My aim is to use this as an opportunity to get away from the basic shapes and start applying what I am learning. However don't want to crash and burn so to speak. MB gives lots of examples of what "modern chords" to apply over standard changes and thats what I am thinking of trying to apply.

[Dannyhulk]

Real nice one

[Kojo27]

Some of the other guys can answer this a lot better than I can, but I'll give it a shot.

Look at Mickey Baker's lesson 15. "Bridges," he's talking about, and how to jazz up the "standard" chords.

Say you want to play the first bridge, the 2 bars each of E7, A7, D7, G7. You need to know what chords the piano player is playing. If he's playing the standard chords (above), you're okay with most of Mickey's substitution suggestions. But you don't want to play that G13b5b9 chord, if piano man is playing a plain old G7 (which might have a 5th - a D note - ringing out against your D flat note... the "b5" in the G13b5b9 chord that Mickey suggests.)

For chords like Dm9, Dm7, Dm6 -- these work in place of a D minor, because these "color" tones (9, 7, & 6) are in the same scale the D minor comes from. When he tells you to play, say, a Bm7 & E7, two beats each, over what's normally four beats of E7, you're making a "ii-V" out of a whole bar of just "V"... jazzing it up, adding movement and color.

Whoa! I just realized how much stuff I somehow know but can't quickly explain. The Mickey Baker book is probably a "must-have" for learning what you're doing. However, he doesn't do much of a job of explaining the "whys" of his suggestions, which is what you seem to be needing to know, so you can play in your group and not clash with the piano player's stuff.

So: these other guys on the forum can explain better. Meanwhile, I suggest you get yourself a copy of Jody Fisher's _The Complete Jazz Guitar Method_. This is a four-volume deal, and if possible, you can do yourself a favor by buying only the first two volumes (for now anyway.) Here you'll learn the chord & scale theory you must know to understand and play jazz.

AND: you'll probably find good info about this at Matt Warnock's great website, which I think is: Matt Warnock : Jazz Guitar, Guitar Lessons & Guitar Journalism | MattWarnockGuitar.com

Best of luck!

kj

[MikeJ]

Thanks KJ really appreciate the responce..
So to play it safe I will avoid the b5's at this stage and maybe just slowly try to add in some color with the MB suggestions.
I have half a book case full of different methods and theories, have read plenty.. Applying it and having the confidence to do so is the main issue.
I will check out Jodie Fisher and often read Matt's great website.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by MikeJ

Thanks KJ really appreciate the responce..
So to play it safe I will avoid the b5's at this stage and maybe just slowly try to add in some color with the MB suggestions.
I have half a book case full of different methods and theories, have read plenty.. Applying it and having the confidence to do so is the main issue.
I will check out Jodie Fisher and often read Matt's great website.

Yeah, Mike, that's just one of the things to beware of when using the Mickey information. If you're the sole accompanist (no piano, etc.), you can be a bit freer with the altered chords, but *still* you have to listen close to what the soloist is playing. If he/she plays a line with a flat 13th, and you play a natural 13th, he/she will throw you a weird look, and you'll be in the wrong... playing rhythm guitar isn't easy in jazz. Lots of head work going on, lots of listening close to the bass player and the soloist, and all the others.

It's my firm opinion that, in learning to comp, a jazz player should have a working knowledge of "shell" voicings -- three-note chords, usually 1-3-7 or 5-3-7, played on (usually) strings 6, 4, and 3. These are very fast shapes to grab and they are of tremendous value when you start piling on extensions. It's also a great way to strengthen your ownership of the fingerboard's layout. Freddie Green (the comper's comper) used these chords almost exclusively. I'd go so far as to recommend using them in place of Mickey Baker's bigger voicings -- because they're safer. Here's a link to a book I haven't yet read, but it's probably fine for learning shells: Amazon.com: Three-Note Voicings and Beyond (9781883217662): Randy Vincent: Books

Keep comping. Learn all the tunes you can, using these chords -- that's how you internalize them best, I think.

kj

[MikeJ]

Thanks again kj
lots to learn.. At least I am now in a position to have a go
cheers

Mike