D+7 (#11, #9)

[Timbell]

This In the 80's arrangement is starting to frustrate me, I don't know if it is because I am reading a piano chart, but some of the chords I have encountered are really throwing me a curve ball, I just cannot find a good voicing for them, I don't really know where to start.

how do I prioritize the chord tones to a chord like D+7(#11, #9) is there a simpler way of looking at a chord symbol like this?

[mr. beaumont]

It's a D altered chord. + means raised fifth, the chord also has a seventh, a #11 (b5) and a #9. Not the best way to write the chord, but piano charts are, well, piano charts...

Any or all of the extensions named are fair game.

What's your role in this group? How many players? your job might just be third and seventh, for all I know...

[Timbell]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's a D altered chord. + means raised fifth, the chord also has a seventh, a #11 (b5) and a #9. Not the best way to write the chord, but piano charts are, well, piano charts...

Any or all of the extensions named are fair game.

What's your role in this group? How many players? your job might just be third and seventh, for all I know...

1 guitarist in a large school ensemble which includes a bassist.

[fep]

In big bands play compact chords, mostly just the R 3rd and 7th or include a fifth if it's not altered. You can add the other extensions and altered tones if you have time and know they'll work. But you don't have too. Someone else in the band will play those extensions so you're covered.


For that chord just play a D7 like one of these:




-x------------x--------------------------------
-x------------x--------------------------------
-5-----------11-------------------------------
-4-----------10--------------------------------
-5------------x--------------------------------
-x-----------10---------------------------------

[Timbell]

thanks fep. This is a mambo tune and the chord changes are very slow in some parts, the chord in questions last for 4 bars. I always associate the rhythm voicings with swing or 4 to the bar playing. Wont the root in both of those voicings interfere with the bassist?

[mr. beaumont]

Not really...if you're worried about it, just play the third and seventh.

Likely, the bass player will play the root...but maybe only on the first beat of the change...

Adjust your tone too...in a large ensemble, I like midrange...stays out of everyone's "zone."

You might also think about 3rd, 7th, and one of the available extensions...3, 7, #9 is a great sound...

[fep]

Originally Posted by Timbell

thanks fep. This is a mambo tune and the chord changes are very slow in some parts, the chord in questions last for 4 bars. I always associate the rhythm voicings with swing or 4 to the bar playing. Wont the root in both of those voicings interfere with the bassist?

With slow rhythmic changes and it being latin you also have the option of doing a montuno or even a funky skank (playing but muting all but one string and that one string is stacatto).

Hear's an example of a skank at the very beginning of this video.

YouTube Video

[Reg]

What's the tune... I've played a million big band gigs... I'll show you.

[AZanshin]

Originally Posted by Reg

What's the tune... I've played a million big band gigs... I'll show you.

Yes. Tell Reg I want to hear more of his awesome approaches

[FatJeff]

My experience is right in line with what's been said so far. Those charts are written by composers/arrangers, and they are explicitly writing out the exact chord that results from the combination of all the different voices of the different horns. The charts are not written with the guitarist in mind, despite the fact that at the top of the page it says GUITAR (or in many cases, PIANO, or even BASS). You got - what? - 13 horns? In this case, odds are 100% that some of them are playing G# (#11), some are playing A# (#5), and some are playing F (#9). If you look at their parts you will be able to verify this.

[jazzphan]

all this advice is what i'm starting to realize in my university's big band as well - when you see a funky chord like that, odds are the horn section will be covering those extensions... just stick to shell voicings. you will be able to navigate the changes easier at full tempo as well when you dont have to stop and think about a ridiculous voicing like a D aug. 7#9#11!!

[Reg]

The rhythm section needs to correctly spell out what's going on harmonically. Typically your not simply playing one chord when the chart says D+7#9#11... you need to know where that chord comes from and how the composer or arranger was using that chord or chord progression. What's implied... Then when we comp we set up what's going on and what's going to come etc... If you simply play simple shell voicing or basic chord tones... that's what the rhythm section is going to sound like... simple and boring, right out of the can. A big band needs a kick ass rhythm section that doesn't follow but stays ahead and sets most things up. If your goal is to simply get through the chart... you need to get your skills together. The sections need to be able to count on us to be able to play with, against or how ever the chart set up. Obviously there are sections where we have written out parts, but that's a small % of the time. Most Big Band rhythm parts need help... That's part of our job...
If your going to play basic 3rds and 7ths... why even bother to play... there always covered... more than covered. I know we're all into Freddie Green and all.... but really his playing was more of a time thing as compared to a harmonic thing. Try playing acoustically and see if any one can come close to hearing what your playing. If your playing in a Basie cover band... cool, aesthetically pleasing. You would never see a D7 altered chord symbol...
Anyway if your in a big band to help get your reading together, that's usually one of the reasons... do what ya gotta do. But at least be aware of where you need to get to really be able to cover.
I'm not trying to dish anyone or whatever... I apologize if I'm rubbing wrong... but I know how rhythm sections should work in Big Bands... and not just one's from 50 years ago.
Reg

[Larry Feldman]

If I was going to play the voicing at face value, not knowing what came before or after, I would leave out the root and play a Ab9 chord based at the 9th fret, starting on the 5th string:
Ab, C,, Gb, Bb, Eb
It would cover all the tones in the chord you need, 3rd, 7th, #5, #11, #9. That's a tough chord to cover. I might just leave out the #5 or #11 and play it around the 5th fret using the D7#9 voicing and add an Ab or Bb at the top. Hope this helps, and good luck with the chart and the big band. Sounds like fun. Larry

[Reg]

Yea Larry the Ab9 could cover the notes, but depending on how the D+7#9 #11 is really functioning... could be small problem depending on harmonic rhythm... actually we're just playing a numbers game with out tune. Is the actual chord symbol correct... usually not. As spelled without going synthetic ... Altered is only scale to cover. The notation is somewhat of a oxymoron... mix of implications. But what else is new.
The other point about comping is that when we comp for tunes... we rarely simply play one voicing of a chord symbol. What ever tune your playing has a style, feel etc... which your comping... your playing should be representing that along with working with the rhythm section. My point is that chord... is usually part of a chord progression, which usually is trying to imply harmonic movement with a style of comping. Unless there are rhythm kicks or actual notated out parts, part of our job is to cover what's implied. That usually means playing more than what's notated by simple chord symbols. Unless your really playing something in the Freddie Green style... you would usually be playing more than "one" attack of that D+7#9 #11 chord... that chord would be part of your "chord pattern" being played under your "lead line". Which really gives you more attacks to cover all the notes... if that's what your after.
Generally Big Band charts have lousy rhythm parts... usually the charts are written for specific band, and the players knew what the composer/arranger really wanted. If your playing somewhat modern charts, like Mintzer or Maria Schneider etc... then the rhythm section parts are much more detailed... but there is still room. Reg

[oneworld]

Originally Posted by fep

In big bands play compact chords, mostly just the R 3rd and 7th or include a fifth if it's not altered. You can add the other extensions and altered tones if you have time and know they'll work. But you don't have to.
Someone else in the band will play those extensions so you're covered.

very good post... what you call 'compact chords' i refer to as

'D & G' are the guitarist's best friends' ! (no joke...) :-)

Combining intervals, not just the 3rds & 7ths, and/or 'moving 2 lines' (on D & G only) works very well to depict just about any harmonic motion not just in big band music but in any situation where the guitar is responsible for chordal playing with a good rhythm section behind a soloist without cluttering up all the space... If you want to give your piano player a hard time let him see this:

Sonny Rollins: Why A Guitar - YouTube

[cubistguitar]

your getting the good advice here, a good chance that strange naming of that chord is throwing the horns notes into the mix as fep described. In a big group I think your part will swing hard if you keep it simple 3 or 4 notes. That dosen't mean you can't vary which 3 or 4 notes you select. If your there for a minute try to hear what is going on in the arrangement at that time and seeif some of the extensions could be interesting, but alll those tones in one guitar chord for big band? Not usually.