Mark Levine on Chord ii and mode 2 of melodic minor

[Ron Stern]

I. The Jazz Theory Book p. 61

Problem: the m3 of I is the b9 of ii, a dissonance.

Solution: To avoid this dissonance, when playing mode 2, change the ii
to iisusb9.

I don't get it. iisusb9 contains b9, creating the dissonance we're supposed to avoid.

II. The Jazz Theory Book p. 51

"susb9 chords usually function as V chords, and they want to resolve down a 5th."

Is this also true when the susb9 is used as the ii of melodic minor?

[calder9@in.com.au]

Mark Levine is way too complicated and confusing for me. He says the only difference between the major and melodic minor scale is the b3, which is complete nonsense to me. If you just flat the 3 you get the natural minor scale. I've given up on Levine.

[calder9@in.com.au]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

1 2 -3 4 5 6 M7 1 melodic minor
1 2 3 4 5 6 M7 1 Major scale
1 2 -3 4 5 6 b7 1 Dorian scale
1 2 -3 4 5 b6 M7 1 Harmonic Minor

I guess it all depends on what you alter in comparison to a diatonic major scale. But that's kind of beside the point. It's a scale in itself. It's not a harmonic natural 6 but maybe I'll start calling it that to sound academic.

More confusion.

C scale C D E F G A B C
Am scale A B C D E F G A (natural minor)
Am scale A B C D E F G# A (harmonic minor)
Am scale A B C D E F# G# A (melodic minor (ascending))

All those minuses and major intervals, and minor scales formed by flattening the third of the major rather than just using the Eb scale for Cm, for example, do my head in.

Anyway, OK so far?

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by calder9@in.com.au

Mark Levine is way too complicated and confusing for me. He says the only difference between the major and melodic minor scale is the b3, which is complete nonsense to me. If you just flat the 3 you get the natural minor scale. I've given up on Levine.

I think you are looking at natural minor skewed.
Natural minor is, 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7, built from the 6th position of a Major scale.

Melodic minor is, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7.

Major scale is, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. So the b3 is the only difference.

Hope this helps.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by calder9@in.com.au

More confusion.

C scale C D E F G A B C
Am scale A B C D E F G A (natural minor)
Am scale A B C D E F G# A (harmonic minor)
Am scale A B C D E F# G# A (melodic minor (ascending))

All those minuses and major intervals, and minor scales formed by flattening the third of the major rather than just using the Eb scale for Cm, for example, do my head in.

Anyway, OK so far?

C scale, C D E F G A B

C MM, C D Eb F G A B


BTW, just my two cents. Learn MM the same ascending and descending. You can always throw in natural minor later. Makes it much less confusing and still sounds great. IMHO

[calder9@in.com.au]

I'm reading consistently in theory books that harmonic minor is the minor scale with a raised seventh, and melodic is the minor scale with a raised sixth and seventh. Ah yes, the light is beginning to come on. Cm is a mode of the Eb scale, so if you're comparing it with C major there is only one flat (Eb) and that' s the one difference. Sorry to be so slow. Thanks.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by calder9@in.com.au

I'm reading consistently in theory books that harmonic minor is the minor scale with a raised seventh, and melodic is the minor scale with a raised sixth and seventh. Ah yes, the light is beginning to come on. Cm is a mode of the Eb scale, so if you're comparing it with C major there is only one flat (Eb) and that' s the one difference. Sorry to be so slow. Thanks.

Remember, C- is also a mode of two other scales. Bb Ab, as well as Eb.

It is the ii of Bb

The iii of Ab

And the Vi of Eb.

So it's spelling and function is different in each key. Make sense?

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

And think about this, when you hear the different scales, nobody (I know of) says "Oh that's a one note alteration of the [blah blah] scale", so you might find the scale notes by referencing a related scale, but you get to know it for its own qualities. A woman is not a man with functional mammaries and a socket instead of a plug. A man is not a woman with decorative nipples and a plug where a socket should be.
David

That was one hell of an analogy Dave!!! Where have you been hanging out at night?

[e_del]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

... A woman is not a man with functional mammaries and a socket instead of a plug. A man is not a woman with decorative nipples and a plug where a socket should be.
David

Hahaha! Great!
I think I'll borrow it for my future examples too :-) :-)

[Ron Stern]

ii and iisusb9 have the same root. The dissonance is between the b9 and the m3. Although susb9 obviously has the b9, it doesn't have the b3 (or maybe it does, see below), it has the 4 instead (maybe), so although the b9 vs. m3 problem is gone (maybe) it's major and dominant, so there would seem to be problems using it any context where you would want to use the ii, because of its non-major non-dominant qualities. Can that situation not arise in the context of melodic minor harmony? Is it necessary to un-minor the ii?

Getting back to what this chord actually is, the sus chord now contains the 3d as well as the 4th, according to Mr. Levine. So when you substitute iisus9 for ii, which 3 do you put in, minor or major? Both?

If you put the m3 back in, then you re-create the m3 vs. b9 dissonance.

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

If your ear finds a new way to use the sound of a note, chord or scale . . .

Then you could write your own book. Meanwhile, the question is, what does this book say.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by Ron Stern

Then you could write your own book. Meanwhile, the question is, what does this book say.

You already told us what it said. What do you think it means? The same thing applies in the i chord dealing with the M7. Or the IIIM7 chord dealing with the #5. Accept the dissonance or don't play em. How they resolve within a harmonic center rife with dissonance is what your ear tells you. I like all the dark harmonies. Also with the susb9 I am hearing the -7b5 of the 6th mode. It screams the IV7. That's how I hear it.

[Reg]

Even though it may look like something on paper, or by analysis... many times it may deceptively be something else. You need context, or at least tonal reference. I've known Mark on and off for years, been on same gigs etc... He has a wonderful set of ears, and his latin/jazz playing is beautiful. I don't have his books... but I'll pick them up and try and put in context and BS with him about them. Give me a week... Reg

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Ha! Music theory is child's play. Understanding women... well that's what makes playing the blues necessary.
David

Like it!

[Reg]

Originally Posted by Ron Stern

I. The Jazz Theory Book p. 61

Problem: the m3 of I is the b9 of ii, a dissonance.

Solution: To avoid this dissonance, when playing mode 2, change the ii
to iisusb9.

I don't get it. iisusb9 contains b9, creating the dissonance we're supposed to avoid.

II. The Jazz Theory Book p. 51

"susb9 chords usually function as V chords, and they want to resolve down a 5th."

Is this also true when the susb9 is used as the ii of melodic minor?

Sorry took so long, had to pick up copy.... The answer would be totally related to context. His reference to "susb9" usually resolving down a 5th on pg 51 is in general terms... as reference to how we typically deal with Dom. chords, V resolving to I. With no reference or context, we generally think or hear sus chords as V or Dom chord. The quote is not specifically meant to mean all III- chords which are changed to susb9 chords, always function as V chord with dom. function.
And when applying same technique to II chord of Melodic Min... same general concepts would or could apply.
The sus b9 chord is a standard chord used in Jazz. If your aware of how modal interchange works , (in jazz), you understand how non-diatonic chords are constantly used in somewhat diatonic context. The susb9 chord is simple one of those standard jazz chords that has a few common choices as to harmonic source, which allows more options as to how to interpret... similar to how Modal Interchange allows substitute chords.
In Mark's II chord from MM, he 's simply showing how the chord is typically covered, used by jazz players.
Mark also brings up how with MM, you can interchange most of the chords almost anytime, unlike with diatonic chords built from Major scale.
Most of Mark's point are related to how traditional harmonic material is use and played by jazz musicians. Anyway finish the chapter and if you want more info. I'll gladly break it down etc... Reg

[Meggy]

Just to put in a thumbs up for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" - I use it all the time, and think it's just great. It's not my only source by any means, but for giving an overview of jazz music theory - the big picture if you like - IMO it's second to none. In fact, just a terrific book for a general introduction to the world of jazz, and it's conventions etc. also. It does help to be able to play a bit of keyboard though, and read treble and bass clef, although many of the examples can be adapted to the guitar.

[wizard3739]

Originally Posted by Meggy

Just to put in a thumbs up for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" - I use it all the time, and think it's just great. It's not my only source by any means, but for giving an overview of jazz music theory - the big picture if you like - IMO it's second to none. In fact, just a terrific book for a general introduction to the world of jazz, and it's conventions etc. also. It does help to be able to play a bit of keyboard though, and read treble and bass clef, although many of the examples can be adapted to the guitar.

+! I also use it a lot, it is a very good reference and memory jogger.

wiz

[Ron Stern]

Thanks, Reg. I've been considering your response for several days now.

I'm guessing the answer to the question, "Does the iisusb9 substituted for the ii in melodic minor want to resolve down a fifth?", is "no"?

[Reg]

Hey... Ron, yea in many examples of II7susb9 or simply IIsusb9, the changes aren't implying dominant resolution or root movement down a 5th. But can...
I tend to think or hear susb9 chords in the same manor as I think or hear Altered chords from 7th degree of Melodic Minor.... even thought technically the chord is a -7b5 chord when spelled in traditional 3rds... We as jazz players hear and use in a dominant manor, we call it a type of dom.7th chord, V7alt. You don't apply the same set of rules to MM as you do Nat. Minor, (maj scale and traditional harmonic practice).
How we derive... Major derived scales and chords... is different when we use Melodic min. But many of the principles or methods of use, how we use the actual note collections as opposed to how we derive the note collections, can be the same. Think about it and feel free to make me explain in a clearer fashion... Or any other questions about Mark's approach, now that I have his books, can't wait to see him on gig...Reg

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey... Ron, yea in many examples of II7susb9 or simply IIsusb9, the changes aren't implying dominant resolution or root movement down a 5th. But can...
I tend to think or hear susb9 chords in the same manor as I think or hear Altered chords from 7th degree of Melodic Minor.... even thought technically the chord is a -7b5 chord when spelled in traditional 3rds... We as jazz players hear and use in a dominant manor, we call it a type of dom.7th chord, V7alt. You don't apply the same set of rules to MM as you do Nat. Minor, (maj scale and traditional harmonic practice).
How we derive... Major derived scales and chords... is different when we use Melodic min. But many of the principles or methods of use, how we use the actual note collections as opposed to how we derive the note collections, can be the same. Think about it and feel free to make me explain in a clearer fashion... Or any other questions about Mark's approach, now that I have his books, can't wait to see him on gig...Reg

SEPTEMBER 25 2011
Mark Levine Trio
David Belove, bass
Michaelle Georlitz, percussion5-7pm
The Bird's Nest
Oakland, CA
Advance Tickets

[Reg]

Hey Randall thanks... I'm not on that gig, But the place, Cathy Walkup's loft is very cool, personal concerts one a month.... I was looking forward to being on another gig with Mark, have fun with buying his book ... Davids a great local bassist...

[vittigo]

Could any of You guys share a fingerings You use for susb9 chords? Thanks

[brwnhornet59]

|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| C7susb9
||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|




8th fret

C7susb9
||---|---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|





9th fret

C7susb9

||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[markfly]

I'd be interested to know people's thoughts on this issue. Cheers!