Question about terminology.

juzz · #1 07-26-2011, 05:23 PM

So lets say G7#11. how is this different from a G7b5 in terms of how you would actually finger it on the fretboard. couldnt find a chord chart that had it so i just built it and dont get why i cant just play a G7b5. an explanation would be appreciated.

juzz · #2 07-26-2011, 05:24 PM

in retrospect this might not be about terminology.

m78w · #3 07-26-2011, 05:28 PM

If you are playing G7#11 you could also have a natural 5 in the chord if you wanted, but with a G7b5 you have to have a diminished 5th and no natural 5th, hope that makes sense. Here's an example of each.

G7#11(with 5th)

x
3
4
3
4
3

G7b5

x
2
4
3
x
3

brwnhornet59 · #4 07-26-2011, 05:30 PM

G7#11 is the same chord. Just use the #11 instead of the 5th. ie, 1, 3, #11, b7. It is the 4th mode of D Melodic Minor.

The way you are playing it is fine.

Matt's way is fine as well. I personally don't use the natural 5th. But it does give a cool sound between C# and D, used together.

juzz · #5 07-26-2011, 05:31 PM

so one could use a 7b5 in place of a 7#11, but if you add the nat 5th it really brings out the (7#11)ness of it all?

juzz · #6 07-26-2011, 05:32 PM

magnificent, i appreciate both of your input as they address the theory and the application. high fives for everyone

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #7 07-26-2011, 05:34 PM

I'd claim most 7b5 chords are *really* 7#11 chords, if one is being picky about notation. Min7b5 chords are really b5, though.

Guitarists tend to leave the 5th out of 7#11 chords, but it does sound cool to me:

G7#11: 35342x

brwnhornet59 · #8 07-26-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juzz

so one could use a 7b5 in place of a 7#11, but if you add the nat 5th it really brings out the (7#11)ness of it all?

By using both you get that 1/2 step dissonance.

brwnhornet59 · #9 07-26-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I'd claim most 7b5 chords are *really* 7#11 chords, if one is being picky about notation. Min7b5 chords are really b5, though.

Guitarists tend to leave the 5th out of 7#11 chords, but it does sound cool to me:

G7#11: 35342x

+1 on that DaddyO!!

m78w · #10 07-26-2011, 05:37 PM

no problem, I would watch though, the chords may look the same, but the related scales are much different. G7#11 is the 4th mode of melodic minor, so in this case D melodic minor starting on G

G A B C# D E F G

But, G7b5 is more related to a whole-tone scale, since it has a diminished 5th and no natural fifth like the above scale

G A B C# D# F G

So the chord shapes themselves can be the same, if you choose not to include a natural 5th, just R 3 b5(#11) and b7, but if you are expanding beyond those four notes, or are improvising over that chord the name can mean two different melodic choices.

so they can be thought of as the same 4-note chord on the guitar, but harmonically and melodically speaking they come from different scale systems.

brwnhornet59 · #11 07-26-2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m78w

no problem, I would watch though, the chords may look the same, but the related scales are much different. G7#11 is the 4th mode of melodic minor, so in this case D melodic minor starting on G

G A B C# D E F G

But, G7b5 is more related to a whole-tone scale, since it has a diminished 5th and no natural fifth like the above scale

G A B C# D# F G

So the chord shapes themselves can be the same, if you choose not to include a natural 5th, just R 3 b5(#11) and b7, but if you are expanding beyond those four notes, or are improvising over that chord the name can mean two different melodic choices.

so they can be thought of as the same 4-note chord on the guitar, but harmonically and melodically speaking they come from different scale systems.

Great explaining Matt. I never really looked at harmonizing the whole tone scale through it's full chord extensions. I will look at it and see what grabs me!

Thanx Man.

m78w · #12 07-26-2011, 05:45 PM

yeah it's just a matter of semantics really. The only time it really matters is when you see one or the other written in a chart. If you just see G7 and you want to add in the #11(b5) then it's up to you as a comper what voicing and harmonic system you want to use.

But, when it does become important is when you're reading a chart and the composer/arrange has written one or the other, because that means the had a specific sound in mind and you should stick to that if you can.

So, if you're putting in the #11 sound yourself have at it, either way, but if one or the other written specifically in a chart then stick to what's on the page, at least until you're comfortable with the chart and can play around with the harmony a bit.

juzz · #13 07-26-2011, 05:49 PM

jesus you people are thorough.

m78w · #14 07-26-2011, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

G7#11: 35342x

How are you fingering that chord, are you barring both 3's with your middle finger? Like this?

x
2 (1st)
4 (3rd)
3 (2nd)
5 (4th)
3 (2nd)

Dig the chord, just wondering how you finger it.

m78w · #15 07-26-2011, 05:50 PM

yeah, don't get us started around here on anything jazz guitar related, we'll never stop!

Quote:

Originally Posted by juzz

jesus you people are thorough.

juzz · #16 07-26-2011, 05:50 PM

and thanks much to everyone who contributed to that thorough explanation. i certainly am no longer confused.

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #17 07-26-2011, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m78w

How are you fingering that chord, are you barring both 3's with your middle finger? Like this?

x
2 (1st)
4 (3rd)
3 (2nd)
5 (4th)
3 (2nd)

Dig the chord, just wondering how you finger it.

That's it -- do a small barre with the middle finger, but lift the bottom up so the C# can sound.

mattymel · #18 07-26-2011, 11:36 PM

Personally I think of G7#11 as more of a Lydian Dom type chord versus a G7b5 being more in the realm of altered or whole tone. But whatever works...

JakeAcci · #19 07-26-2011, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m78w

If you are playing G7#11 you could also have a natural 5 in the chord if you wanted, but with a G7b5 you have to have a diminished 5th and no natural 5th, hope that makes sense. Here's an example of each.

G7#11(with 5th)

x
3
4
3
4
3

G7b5

x
2
4
3
x
3

I'd argue that a G7#11 that also has a fifth would generally have a fifth voiced in a lower octave than the #11.

JakeAcci · #20 07-26-2011, 11:43 PM

Practically speaking, I think people (and publications) interchange the terminology about this enharmonic situation often enough that it's not worth worrying about.

Harmonic context is probably more important. If I see:

Fmaj7 - G7#11 - |Gm7 - C7 -

I don't think of it as different than

Fmaj7 - G7b5 - |Gm7 - C7 -

but if I see

Dm7 - G7b5 - | Cmaj7

or

Dm7 - G7#11 - | Cmaj7

It's a different world harmonically...because of the context, not because of the spelling in the chart.

Being more explicit, it's not default for me to play an altered-scale sound on a II7 leading to IIm7, and it's not default for me to play a lydian dominant sound on a V7 leading to I, regardless of the enharmonic spelling on the chart.

Reg · #21 07-27-2011, 12:13 AM

Matt... nice to hear someone thinking about what's implied as well as what's played. Eventually you get to where there is a very big difference between how we notate the spelling of chords. When I see chord notation it's not telling me simply what notes to play... it's informing me of a harmonic concept, as Matt was saying the spelling tells you where the chord is from, which implies what options you have with subs, simple re-harms, what chord patterns you can approach with... how the melody is functioning with or against the harmony... It implies, if you know your jazz history, how that chord has been used and developed , and where it can typically go... I can go on, but I hope you get the idea. Just because your not aware of something...doesn't mean it's not going on or not implied. Jake's point about context... is always up front, but what if your unaware of the context... and of course, it's not simply #11 and b5...

markfly · #22 08-08-2011, 05:08 AM

I was looking forward to being on another gig with Mark, have fun with buying his book

tsar nicholas · #23 09-03-2011, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reg

Matt... nice to hear someone thinking about what's implied as well as what's played. Eventually you get to where there is a very big difference between how we notate the spelling of chords. When I see chord notation it's not telling me simply what notes to play... it's informing me of a harmonic concept, as Matt was saying the spelling tells you where the chord is from, which implies what options you have with subs, simple re-harms, what chord patterns you can approach with... how the melody is functioning with or against the harmony... It implies, if you know your jazz history, how that chord has been used and developed , and where it can typically go... I can go on, but I hope you get the idea. Just because your not aware of something...doesn't mean it's not going on or not implied. Jake's point about context... is always up front, but what if your unaware of the context... and of course, it's not simply #11 and b5...

^ This is a really thought-provoking post. I admit that I don't think about chords this deeply, especially re : the history aspect. Good food for thought!