Speculating on ii-V-I

[VKat]

Suppose you were given a ii-V-I in C-major (what could be easier?) and were asked to develop and play a nice juzzy 32-bar comping piece. What would you do? I'm asking because I want to know how a jazz guitarists would think about making jazz from scratch though ii-V-I is already a big hint to start with

What I'd like you to help me with is to show me how you would develop a piece in the jazz style from the very basic harmonic movement on the fly.

Thank you.

[m78w]

I might do something like this, but there are tons of options, too many to write down:

Dm7/G7/Cmaj7/Gm7 C7/

Fmaj7/Em7b5 A7alt/Dm7 G7/Em7b5 A7alt/


Dm7/G7/Cmaj7/Gm7 C7

Fmaj7/Em7b5 A7alt/Dm7 G7/Cmaj7/


Bm7b5/E7alt/Am7/Am7/

Am7/D7/Dm7/G7/


Dm7/G7/Cmaj7/Gm7 C7/

Fmaj7/Em7b5 A7alt/Dm7 G7/Cmaj7 A7alt/

[VKat]

Originally Posted by m78w

I might do something like this, but there are tons of options, too many to write down...

Thank you, I agree with you, there are all possible ways out there to develop a jazz harmony which is basically composing a new tune. Your correct answer to my question would also be 'Go and analyse a bunch of jazz standards' but I wouldn't like to be treated that way.
This because I'm not experienced in the analysis and I wouldn't know why a composer chose this or that move. Perhaps that's a good way to study jazz but I'm limited in time with my main job and need some quick guidance.

I'd appreciate if you explained me why you chose the harmonic moves in your example for the logical reasons or musically pleasing sound. I see it's basically an AABA form (right?).

Another question is do I understand correctly that a good start would be to learn changes fot I've Got Rhythm and Honeysucle Rose to cover a wide range of jazz standards that followed their harmonic schemes? Are there any other standards to add?

[m78w]

Hey,

For that little progression I just went from the I chord to the IV chord, Fmaj7, and worked my way back to the top of the form with a little turn around. Then the B section is just a ii-V to the relative minor, then I work my way back to the top of the form again. It's a pretty common progression

If you want to study tunes in order to get an idea of common jazz progressions you could start with these ones, they have a lot of the basic two and four bar phrases that you see in a lot of other tunes:

Cherokee
All the Things You Are
So Danco Samba
Take the A Train
Satin Doll
What is This Thing Called Love
Jordu
Blues for Alice
Stablemates
Whisper Not

[MGranada]

Hi Matt

Could you explain ,please, the presence of Gm7 C7 and Em7b5 A7alt bars in a C major 2 5 1 ? I understand that they are leading us to Fmaj7 and Dm7 chords.

Thx
Miguel

[m78w]

You're right, i used the Gm7-C7 chords to get me to the Fmaj7 chord, a ii-V-I, then i used the Em7b5-A7alt chords as a ii-V of Dm7 to arrive at that chord, here is an analysis of the first A section that might help out.

iim7/V7/Ima7/ii-V of IV/

IVmaj7/ii-V of ii/iim7 V7/ii-V of ii/

[MGranada]

thank you, now i got it...
You are using the Fmaj7 and Dm7 as a start position again (2-5-1 Gm7-C7-Fmaj7) and (2-5-1 Em7b5-A7alt-Dm7)

Eu vi uma luz.... hehe

Txh

[m78w]

Que bom que você viu a luz! rsrs

yeah that's what I'm doing, since the Dm7 chord starts the progression I was "targeting" it with the Em7b5-A7alt chords. As well, the Fmaj7 is in an important spot, bar 5 of an 8 bar phrase, so I targeted it as well with a ii-V before it.

[MGranada]

One last question Matt, what´s the relantionship of the D7 with the relative minor (Am) in the end of the B section?

[m78w]

That's another common turnaround technique.

The Am7 is a iim7 chord in a iim7-V7 progression, Am7-D7

Then, the D7 which was a V7, turns into a iim7 chord and starts another iim7-V7 progression

you can see this type of thing in tons of jazz tunes, a iim7-V7 progression where the V7 then become the iim7 of the next iim7-V7 progression, kind of a harmonic sequence that leads back to the top of the tune.

[MGranada]

Thank you Matt

[m78w]

no problem! any time

[VKat]

Thank you Matt indeed! It would be impolite to ask for more, let's see if anyone else steps in

If anyone else feels they could expand the thread please feel free to add your ideas but please keep to the original 32 bar form to have your piece complete.

The general idea of my post I'm interested in is what you would be playing for self-satisfaction given a simple ii-V-I as a starting point. Nothing too much complicated but nonetheless harmonically pleasing.

[Reg]

Hey Vkat... 32 bar form can be AABA, 8bars each or versions of, or AA, two 16bars, AB, 2 versions of similar idea etc... you can adjust the amount of chords by tempo or how many chords per bar.
As far as how to compose... two basic concepts are;
1) creating chord progression and make lead note of each chord or lead line... a melody and fill in the gaps with rhythmic melodic ideas that help tie the lead notes together... that's where you need to be creative etc... So technically we call this process harmonic construction, using the harmony,(the chords) to compose with and melody after the fact.
2) the other basic method of creating tunes is two come up with melodic ideas, melodies and basically use them just line you did with the chords. And then after the fact fill in the chords. Most single note players/thinkers compose this way. Of course the we're now getting into the chicken/egg thing.
Here's a quick Video of using II V's and some of the versions of etc...
Check it out and ask me what ever... I compose music for years...it's very nuts and bolts... not that complicated....Reg

YouTube Video

Oh yea... here's the changes...
D-9 G7#11
Cmaj7 Cmaj6
B-7b5 E7#9
A-7 A7b13#9 or Eb9#11, the sub.
You can add chords between and if your calling this an A, 8bars long, simply change the last chord or two to get to your B or what ever your calling the next section, then repeat A, usually like the first time.

[ejwhite09]

I think the title of this thread would make a great jazz song title. 'Speculatin' 2-5-1'

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by VKat

there are all possible ways out there to develop a jazz harmony which is basically composing a new tune.

For me, composing a new tune would start with creating the melody while maybe hearing some basic chordal accompaniment in my head, but certainly not with deciding on the chord progression alone.

[max chill]

With bebop, it's as much about the changes as the melody. So many bebop tunes are composed by writing changes first. Otherwise, I agree that melody is king.

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by max chill

With bebop, it's as much about the changes as the melody. So many bebop tunes are composed by writing changes first. Otherwise, I agree that melody is king.

Ahh you're right. Bebop is kind of the video game of music.

[Reg]

Usually when discussing composing tunes there is and always has been the chicken or the egg debate... what came first or which aspect is most important or as max chill said, "melody is king ". And this will go on for ever... So it's usually best to stay away from, or just agree with and move on... When you take away the divinity, magic or whatever we come up with to justify the source of our creativity or the how and why of the finished tune... anyway, most jazz tunes fall into a few basic forms, with a few basic harmonic patterns. I did say most, there are exception... And generally when you make an analysis of most melodies they also fall into one of those basic forms and also imply, (if you choose to hear), one of those basic harmonic patterns. So why fight the obvious, II V's are simply one of many harmonic pieces that fit into those basic forms and basic harmonic patterns.
In the lessons section there's a thread called "Practical Standards", where this months tune is, "Dolphin Dance". Great tune and great example of simple harmonic pattern in a simple form. One of the aspects that makes the tune so cool is the deceptive use of basic II V's. The targets are delayed, camouflaged, the function of the target chords are changed through function substitutions and simple tri-tone sub. implications. But wait there's more... anyway all this is going on with a few simple melodic phrases....I'll post a basic analysis of that tune sometime today, in that thread, if your interested.
It's not quantum mechanics, if you hear some changes or you hear a melodic idea.... who cares why or how you heard... write it down and decide on what form best fits, most forms have general harmonic schemes or harmonic patterns. After you understand the basics... will take a while, you'll have a much better chance of composing something out of the norm. It's like playing outside when you don't know what's inside. Maybe not the best analogy... Best Reg

[VKat]

Reg, thanks for the Dolphin Dance analysis, that's of course great to be able to see what's going on in the piece beyond chord names. Honestly saying, I wouldn't start this thread if I had enough wits (or experiece?) to analyze changes with confidence. If you helped me here a little I'd greatly appreciate that. I'll deviate from the subject but that's really approaching it from another end.

From what little I know it's suggested to view Jazz pieces as stringed ii-V-I's in various keys.
My problem is, when I stumble upon something different than ii-V-I I lose confidence and don't know how to view the change from that point on.

Here is just a little example you could help me with if you like:

In Honeysuckle Rose, the first 4 measures are simple ii-V repititions. Then in measures 5, 6 we have I-iv-ii-V (right?)
How do you interpret measures 7, 8? /F6 Bb9/Am7 D7/ turning back to /Gm7 C9/ in measure 9?
Is it correct to view it as I-IV7, then brief "modulation" to ii-V-i in G-minor with the ii in minor key being not a min7b5 but simply the min (Am7)? I see no logical connection between Bb9 and Am7 though. Looks like some chromatic move but I'm not sure.

[bako]

There is a version of thinking about key as a singular scale and any diversion from the scale or appearance of a new note is some sort of modulation.
I prefer to think about a major or minor pivot point around which many possible harmonies orbit.
It is true that certain chords add or subtract a scale tone and to create melodies we make adjustments.

If the progression was FMa6 BbMa6 // Am7 D7 it would simply be I IV and II V of Gm.
Blues influence uses dominat chords everywhere and the IV chord is one of the most common places.
Bb7 in some situations can be viewed as a tritone sub of E7 to Am but I don't hear it that way in this song probably because of the rhythmic placement. Because interchanging dominants and chord qualities is so prevalent in jazz many prefer to analyze leaving the numerical relations in tact rather than get into secondary dominant thinking. This would then simply be IMa6 IV7 IIIm7 VI7.
The only note that has to change temporarily is A to Ab. It can be viewed as FGABbCDE going to FGAbBbCDE (F Major to F Melodic Minor).
It is interesting that the D7 can melodically take either F natural (#9) or F# (the new chord tone).

[Reg]

Hey Bako... Yea, a key or tonal center. But generally a modulation needs some implications that it's really modulating... can be measured in a few methods... actual time, harmonic movement which has more weight in new key or tonal center, does the non diatonic notes or chords imply new key or tonal center or are they simply one of the many chord patterns, subs etc.. used in jazz language, which are not always heard as modulation. Can get very subjective etc... We can heard the same piece of music and have completely different view of what's going on...In jazz we use modal interchange much more than other styles of music, and don't always hear or call it a modulation. Blue notes, most of the time can simply be explained with sub of sub analysis, or source of notes.
In Honeysuckle Rose
Bars 1 -4 are II- V7 etc... but set the tone for the tune. We're not beginning on a tonic sound, we're starting on the Dom. area. The G- functions more as the related II- of V7 than as an actual II- chord, could even be heard as V7sus to V7. Then in bars 5 & 6 we get the typical I IV V, the second chord is still tonic or I chordal area, the bass note just adds movement, you can play either the diatonic A-7 over or keep the Fmaj. You can make F7 or even use A7... still just heard as basic I IV V, depending on what chord you use over the A in the typical blues bass line, you can label either approach chord or just root motion... not really heard as modulation. To me a modulation, again has implications of new key. That bass line with any collection of notes above, still implies F tonal center.
Bars 7 & 8 are standard turn around to get back to repeat of "A" or the 1st 8bars. ( the use of IV chord as compared to VI is still a standard "chord pattern" use in Blues and jazz). The form of the tune is AABA. If you need analysis for bars 7 & 8, yes I IV7, III- VI7, or call the A-7 D7, a II V of G-(II-). I hear as fairly standard blues implications, just flipped around so I hear the A-7 D7 as II V of G-, with the A- having duel function or a pivot chord. But that's making it much more complicated than it is... a simple turnaround to get back to beginning. The bridge is just I IV II V. In blues sometimes we simply hear I IV as a standard chord pattern, one harmonic area.
If your looking for relationships between Bb7 and A-7, in the context of tune... as before the Bb7 is part of a typical chord pattern, I IV or F to Bb, the A- is the II- of V7 of G-. Or you could even think of the A-7 as a function sub of I which would give you the standard.. I IV I but instead of going to the standard V chord to get back to I, we have D7 or V7 of G-, the actual start of tune... hope helps...Reg

[Sailor]

Great thread...from some jazz giants

tx, Sailor