ted greene lesson question, subs/harmony ?

[exarctly]

TedGreene.com - Teachings - Harmony

This site is pretty nice. I was checking out the second lesson here called application of harmonic improvement concepts.

While I play some of the examples and enjoy them I have a difficult time understanding where to try some of it in other settings.

What I do understand is how the last chord fits into the upcoming chord, but I am not always sure is if it is considerd a sub for the original chord or not.

A few ideas it gave me. Is part of reharmonizing a melody simply taking the melody and inserting typical jazz progressions between the planned harmony that you intend to come from or go back to?

When subbing, which is more important...the chord you are coming from, or the chord you are going to or both? Like if your next chord is G7 , does it matter where you are coming from, you simply can add chords in between that make for a good resolution to G7.

Also, this list is cool, but seems to deal mostly with going from a tonic chord to a ii iii IV V or VI...

how would one apply some of these ideas from say a ii or V chord to something else...

Now I am actually not a newbie. I understand harmony fairly well, but I am looking to sort of get from one level to this other level and looking for a little advice. Have I heard it said that in jazz there are only three chord functions... Tonic dominant and subdominant... can someone clarify this. Is the ii chord considered subdominant then (even though theory wise it is referred to often as supertonic), and I know well what tonic and dominant are. But are there other chords that are considered subdominant and dominant besides ii or V.

Sorry to be a bother. Just trying to figure out how to fit more sounds in there to spice up the harmonic range.

Thanks in advance.

Brian

or I welcome any other limks to lessons on that site that might take it further or other links.

[MikeTT]

Best start to me for Ted's material and universe (yes, it's a whole universe, unbelievable what's to discover there...) was the recorded audio lessons that where posted in the forum on the tedgreene page.

It takes time, a lot of time. And get his books, all of them.

[guitarfitch]

Kind of a funny story (I think). Ted was my teacher for about 20 years. I remember early in the lessons I had learned an arrangement of his (Wish upon A Star and maybe Stella) and analysed the hell out of it on paper. Most of it made sense but there were some parts that didn't seem to follow "the rules." I came to the following lesson ready to be enlightened with new and wonderful harmonic concepts. When I asked him about the harmony he had chosen he said "oh I just thought it sounded good there" Well that was kind of a shock for me knowing what a great grasp Ted had on all matters pertaining to chords. Since then I really try to apply the "ear theory" to everything I do when it comes to harmonization. I also feel that if something sounds good there is probably a deeper theoretical reason why it is so. Moral: Constantly learn everything possible about theory of all kinds (Ted loved Bach and could improvise chord melodies on standards in all 12 keys in a Bach counterpoint fashion while talking to you, but was equally adept at modern jazz, blues, country etc.), and learn to trust your ears.

[exarctly]

I really like your reply and pretty much agree with it, and it means a lot coming from someone who studied with Ted. But one reason I think there is something in this lesson Ted wanted his ideas to be investigated more theoretically here in this example is that he wanted the student to find an explanation for why each example worked and the mood/color it created etc. But I do appreciate your perspective and thoughts on the matter.

[guitarfitch]

I agree. Actually Ted seemed to have a handout on every conceivable aspect of theory as pertains to guitar. I remember him reaching into his filing cabinet many a time. He also had a lot of "fill in the blanks" chord sheets for homework. I would recommend everyone downloading every pdf handout that is on that site, there is many lifetimes of work there, but part of Ted's philosophy was to encourage you to work on the things that appeal to you first.

[guitarfitch]

Checkout to see if there is a Ted page on this. I seem to remember something about that IV7, bVl7 bVll were some others

[guitarfitch]

Here is a blurb I found:

In jazz harmony, a secondary dominant is any Dominant chord (major-minor 7th chord) which occurs on a weak beat and resolves downward by a perfect 5th. Thus, a chord is a secondary dominant when it is functioning as the dominant of some harmonic element other than the key's tonic, and promptly resolves to that element. This is slightly different from the traditional use of the term, where a secondary dominant does not have to be a 7th chord, occur on a weak beat, or resolve downward. If a non-diatonic dominant chord is used on a strong beat, it is considered an extended dominant. If it doesn't resolve downward, it may be a borrowed chord.
Secondary dominants are used in jazz harmony in the Bebop blues and other blues progression variations, as are sub V and turnarounds.

[Reg]

Here's some basic info. on dominant chords. The difference between a sub as compared to a re-harm. is simply the tonal implications. If the tonal center or implied tonal center is the same... it's a sub. If the tonal center is different it's a re-harm.
Info on Dom Chords...
1) a dominant chord resolving, (going to), I chord has Dominant cadence.
ex. Key of C... G7 going Cmaj, V7 - Imaj
2) a dominant chord resolving to chord other than I, has Dominant resolution.
ex; key of C... dom7th chord going to any chord, besides C.
3) Secondary Dominants... resolve to Diatonic chords other than I.
ex. Key of C...a dom7th chord going to any diatonic chord,)D-7,E-7,Fmaj7,G7,A-7,B-7b5, all chords built on scale degrees from key of Cmaj.), Other Than Cmaj. Cmaj being the I chord.
4) Extended Dominants resolve to...A) secondary dominants, B) another extended dominant. C) the related II- of another extended or secondary Dominant.
ex. A7, D7, G7, Cmaj7.... A7 is the extended Dominant, D7 is the secondary Dominant. (V7/V7), G7 is V7 of Cmaj7, (Imaj7)
B7, E7, A7, D7, G7....series of secondary dominants...No I chord
B7, B-7 E7, A7, A-7 D7, G7.... extended dominants with related II- chords... No I chord.
B7, E-7, A7, D-7, G7...Extended Dominants with related II-7 chords.... No I chord
Pretty typical Jazz usage.

[exarctly]

Thanks Reg...

I think I figured out the answer to my question though about what he was doing (fron another lesson on his site called chord substitution. It is not always the first chord that you sub from...but rather as you are saying you will often tonicize the second chord by throwing in cadences that resolve to it.
Now what you are saying sounds sort of like what he called back cycling cycling through the circle of 4ths on the upcoming tonicized chird... so instead of C, Am C E7, Am
which is your secondary dominant thing..and then instead of that maybe C Bm E7, Am or C C#m F#m Bm E7 Am or make the minor chords half diminished or dominant.

Is this idea of playing a few more chords leading up to the secondary dominant what you are calling extended dominant... or is extended domnant more like using secondary doms of seconary doms... for example I am curious about the example you list here.

B7, D7, A7, D7, G7 how or why does the B7 go to the D7.. looks more like a matrix type idea... not that I know enough about that yet either.

Thanks.

[brwnhornet59]

B7, D7, A7, D7, G7 how or why does the B7 go to the D7.. looks more like a matrix type idea... not that I know enough about that yet either.

I think that was a typo. I believe he meant: B7, E7, A7, D7, G7.

[exarctly]

That's what I thought... now I totally get this idea... Especially going from chords that are not moving by 4ths. But I find it more difficult when they are.
For instance if a chord is already planned to be tonicized/secondary dominant preceding it, is there more that you can do sub wise, or is this when you should just play it straight or use tri tone subs, or secondary doms of tritone subs. And would you ever back cycle and use tritone subs
for instance play C7 F7 Bb7 Eb7 as subs for or leading to A7...

But my original question. Say a ii is already going to a 5. like Dm or D7 to G7... since you already are going by fourths can you still add some secondary dominant or extended dominant subs... for instance instead of Dm or D7 to G7 play E7 A7 D7 G7

in secondary dominant subs is it better to see ii Vs as one key to cycle through or can you use both. Like if I see Dm G do I just try tonicizing both chords or see it as one extended phrase built around tonicizing the G.

Same question with progressions already going from V to I

does G7 C become E7 A7 D7 G7 C. and using tritone subs could it become Bb7 Eb7 Ab7 Db7 C ..

I think I am getting it now.

[Reg]

Hey Thanks... was typo... There are many ways to look at harmonic movement... I simply think of what, in this case, the chord being labeled, is functioning or relating to. A simple example could be...
C, A7, D-7, G7, C6/9... ( I, VI, II V, I ) If I think of the A7 as a V/II-, then I'm implying a harmonic implication or method of defining harmonic context... How I would spell the complete harmonic area... all the notes, which gives me a starting point for subing or re-harming etc... Now if I call the A7 a modal Interchange and keep as a VI chord... I change the process, which in the end gives me a different collection of notes to pull from. Generally in jazz we see a chord and usually play or hear a chord pattern, a standard series of chords which are implied by that single chord change and the context...They don't all need to be played, but a harmonic concept is usually implied. Part of what makes better jazz players... is there ability to be aware of those implications... why some players have a hipper sound, what I see called a jazzier sound or what ever we want to label as. ( it's not randomly or by pattern...adding chromatic notes).
Back cycling is one method of hearing changes... ONE method.
Extended Dominants generally mean there is no implied tonal center, almost modulating or temporary tonal implication, but does not imply a target as back cycling. Generally we're referring to dom. chords, but in jazz because the II- V7 can be heard as basically one chord, a short, "chord pattern", we can use the related II- chord with out the V7 chord... which opens the door to more standard " chord patterns". You can have a chord that relates to a implied V7 chord that is not played... deceptive resolution, that V7 chord would be implied by it's related II- chord... ( think of same process but now using chord patterns longer that II V's) In the end... what happens is ...we as jazz players become aware of many of the harmonic implications of what we play, and are able to know where to pull from, (harmonically), by what changes or melodic lines we play.
And yes Exarctly... you can add to secondary Dominants... but sec. doms. have a tonal implication... so how you add subs, or re-harms... generally should relate to that tonal center... you can obviously get a long ways from that tonal center fairly easy... but there is a reference since your calling them sec. Doms. and how or what you play should reflect that process.
Generally when we play... you don't have the time to mechanically go through this very slow process... until you begin to become aware of "chord patterns", which does give us more time to actually make choices and not simply react...