Voicings that work really well with pianists?

[FattMusiek]

I was listening to Ahmad Jamal's album Poinciana (which is strangely different than the one listed on wikipedia's Ahmad discography...this one starts with Old Devil Moon).

I use a lot of what I guess are called shell voicings (r, b3, b7 for example). Three note maj7, min7, and dom7 voicings most of the time, but I've been getting away from them depending on the situation or the song that I am playing.

I remember thinking "hm, the voicings I use are clashing with the piano player." I don't remember the specific instance, but I've definitely thought this is something I need to improve on- sounding more transparent and lush while playing with pianists.

I noticed on track three of Poinciana (which is the title track apparently), the guitarist who's name is eluding me uses some nice maj6 voicings. I've been thinking that perhaps one good approach to comping with a piano player is to use major69 chords, perhaps omitting the root.

What kinds of voicings sound best with the majority of pianists? I'd love some chord diagrams, but any insight would be appreciated...!

Also, there is a thread on here started by the one known as Reg with videos of him running through tunes and comping. I was wondering what the general approach is used there. It seems like he is playing different voicings on different beats of the measure. The voicings really nice there. I would like to start playing in this way rather than playing a whole measure of the II chord on the downbeats, a measure of the V chord, and two measures of the I chord.

I know some things about substitutions, but I don't have a strong handle on full descending chromatic chords that could sub for the basic progressions in major keys.

Thanks all!

[voelker]

maj6 chords are often used as a sub for a written maj7, It is a safer choice because it avoids a b2nd clash when the root is in the melody(the 7th is lower than the root). As far as what voicings go with a piano, thats a hard question to answer, U just have to listen and make sure your not steppin on each others feet since you are both chordal instruments. Your 1,3,7 voicings aren't a bad start, leaving out the 5 allows the pianist to freely augment chords and use #11/b5's. I can tell you what alot of pianist do to create movement over a static chord, I got a video from a berklee prof. he called it modal voicings, you will also see it called quartal voicings cuz the chords are built in fourths, for example, since you can use any note from the Cmaj scale over a Dmin7 chord, figure out all the quartal voicings in Cmaj. On strings D,G,B,E the voicings would be
D,G,C,F(0,0,1,1)
E,A,D,G(2,2,3,3)
F,B,E,A(3,4,5,5)
G,C,F,B(5,5,6,7)
A,D,G,C(7,7,8,8)
B,E,A,D(9,9,10,10)
C,F,B,E(10,10,12,12)
so over a Dm7 you can use all these voicings freely, some will sound more dissonent than others, and you won't want to hang on them too long, but you will be able to hear that and move to a more stable voicing. hope this helps

[oldane]

Basically, omit any extensions higher than the 7th. Also omit the 5th if you haven't agreed with the piano player beforehand on what to play. Often the root can also be omitted - it is covered by the bass player and often also the pianist. As for tonic chords, the 6th and the maj7th are freely interchangable.

That leaves you with the 3rd and the 7th as the necessary notes. Those two notes are the only ones needed to characterize the chord function in the progression (major, minor, dominant). Also small "shell" chords works very well for good and smooth voice leading which IMHO is much more important than cramming in an extra exotic extension. With rootless dominant 7 chords, the notes are enharmonic with tritone substitution, which doubles the number of possible fingerings, which greatly facilitates the voice leading.

Use dimished chords as passing chords where appropiate - it will further streamline the voice leading. Rootless "shell" voicings of dim chords are enharmonic with a number of dominant 7 chords (for example Adim can have the same fingering as D7).

Those simple and small chords are the hidden secret behing a smooth "walking" voice leading.

Voice those small chords on the middle strings to make room for yourself between the registers of the pianists right hand and the bass. With a bass, you will often want to omit notes on the A and low E string as they are overlapping with the register of the bass. The top strings is overlapping with the pianists right hand.

Be sure not to overpower the other band members when you comp. You should be just as much felt as actually heard. Remember, you are comping, not soloing.

Check out this book: Amazon.com: Swing and Big Band Guitar: Four-To-The Bar Comping in the Style of Freddie Green (0073999951479): Charlton Johnson: Books

... or this one: Amazon.com: Rhythm Guitar the Ranger Doug Way (9781574242041): Ranger Doug: Books

[randalljazz]

worth noting that by the time they recorded poinciana, ray crawford and ahmad jamal had been playing together over four years...

[sc06yl]

The best kind of comping for a pianist most of the time is no comping...

A good example, the record Interplay- Bill Evans, and Jim Hall, stay out of each others way a lot. And when Jim does end up playing with Bill, he is comping pretty sparely, or at a lower volume, and only when Bill's left hand is not really busy. It is a pretty lazy approach, but its better than two people doing essentially the same thing, and making it sound too dense.

I like to talk to the pianist before hand, and work stuff out, it takes 5 minutes to figure out when to comp, write some shots, and stuff like that.

[mr. beaumont]

The Bill Evans/JimHall approach is very calculated, which allows them to actually do a lot more since they know when the other is going to back off (listening to alternate takes on Undercurrent confirm there was a set idea ahead of time)

Crawford and jamal get along as good as any piano/guitar combo I've ever heard. Crawford plays small voicings, contrapuntal stuff, and fills in the middle--that works so nicely, because Ahmad could work the upper register so well...at times they sound like one instrument. And again, some of the stuff was worked out, particularly during the heads--they didn't call it the chamber music of the new jazz for nuttin'!

Listen carefully to how Ray plays "punctuation"--he's not timekeeping--unless Jamal's not timekeeping. ANd when Ray did keep time, sometimes he'd opt for a non harmonic approach--the 'ol bongo effect!

[cosmic gumbo]

I listen to how vibists comp along with pianists, and they keep it sparse. The piano is king of musical instruments, stay outta the way!

[ronjazz]

Well, another solution is to hire the pianist, and tell him/her to stay out of the way!

[FattMusiek]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Listen carefully to how Ray plays "punctuation"--he's not timekeeping--unless Jamal's not timekeeping. ANd when Ray did keep time, sometimes he'd opt for a non harmonic approach--the 'ol bongo effect!

Are you referring to a song called "Punctuation" or did you mean it as "listen to his punctuation?"