What is a + 4 chord

[JazzFanatik]

Hey, I'm trying to practice comping, and I came across a chord that read :
E7+4
What does that? My best guess would be to just add the 4? but I'm not quite sure and that didn't really sound right!

Thanks

[arjanvvliet]

It's more commonly written as 7sus4. Replace the third with a fourth in a dominant seventh chord. So a C7sus4 would be:

1 4 5 b7
C F G Bb

[mr. beaumont]

Is it?

+ seems to equal "augmented." Now, I personally reserve that for fifths, but I've even seen the "+" to mean raised 9th.

So that chord could be an E7#11...

What's the song, what's the context?

[whatswisdom]

I vote for E7#11

[arjanvvliet]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Is it?

+ seems to equal "augmented." Now, I personally reserve that for fifths, but I've even seen the "+" to mean raised 9th.

So that chord could be an E7#11...

What's the song, what's the context?

Ah 7+4 instead of 7#4 / 7#11... Hadn't thought of it that way, you're probably right

Either way, the notation's not very clear...

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Jamey Aebersold uses +4 for #11 throughout his books (don't ask me why).

I too vote for E7#11.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

I vote for E7#11

My guess too.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

Jamey Aebersold uses +4 for #11 throughout his books (don't ask me why).

I too vote for E7#11.

One of the many notational errors along with harmonic, melodic and rhythmic mistakes through out most Aebersold series... Reg

[oldane]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

So that chord could be an E7#11...

Agree. FWIW, in my sample of "Pocket Changes" "7+4" is used and in the explanations of the chords symbols in the book, it says that it's the same as a dominant 7th with a raised 11th.

Now, that said, it will actually often work to replace say a bar of only V7 (or derivates thereoff) with V7sus4 - V7 (as would a regular IIm7 - V7 cadenca). So instead of V7+4 - V7+4, depending on the context, one might get away with V7sus4 - V7. But of course, if playing in a band, it should be worked out beforehand with the other band members. It will clash if the guitarist plays a natural 4 and the pianist plays a raised 4 (= 11).

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Reg

One of the many notational errors along with harmonic, melodic and rhythmic mistakes through out most Aebersold series... Reg

That's depressing. Wow! I assumed that Aebersold was the most trusted source in jazz pedagogy. A lot of the playalongs have the best musicians, Kenny Barron, Dave Stryker, etc.

[Reg]

I'm not referring to the players, we all have to work. It's the, as I said notation... and harmonic understands of what it implies. Hell, The Hal Leonard... real books don't know the difference between b13 and # 5 and their implications... I'm not trying to put you on the spot... but do you, or anyone else reading this. I apologize for being rude... but momentary understandings in music for making $, do have problems.
Reg

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Reg

I'm not referring to the players, we all have to work. It's the, as I said notation... and harmonic understands of what it implies. Hell, The Hal Leonard... real books don't know the difference between b13 and # 5 and their implications... I'm not trying to put you on the spot... but do you, or anyone else reading this. I apologize for being rude... but momentary understandings in music for making $, do have problems.
Reg

No offense taken on my part, Reg. I always read your stuff with great interest and respect your playing on the vids. I'd be lying if I said I fully had the b13 vs #5 issue understood, as I'm relatively new to jazz playing. I've been playing other music for a long time and have a good understanding of functional harmony. I've taken Theory I & II in college and studied with a private teacher too. I'm disappointed that Aebersold would put out charts with mistakes. Don't the pros that play on and (I assume) endorse the content know that this is the case? I was intending to pick up some of the playalongs to further my development as a jazz guitar player. I know that listening and transcribing is the best way to learn and I intend to try it. Besides that, are there any books or playalongs that you would endorse? For example, I'd love to pick up some Bird solo transcriptions to get on the fast track with bebop.

[billkath]

For rhythm guitar players, though-people "just" playing chords-b5, #4 and #11-(or b6, #5, b13) --are the same chord shapes-right? The differences would be how the chord was functioning, and a different choice of scales when soloing?

[bako]

Originally Posted by billkath

For rhythm guitar players, though-people "just" playing chords-b5, #4 and #11-(or b6, #5, b13) --are the same chord shapes-right? The differences would be how the chord was functioning, and a different choice of scales when soloing?

The progression and not the parent scale often dictates how a chord is functioning. The scale is generally a color to the function.
When you see ma7#11 used on a I chord it didn't suddenly take on a IV chord function.
Deciding a scale choice implies a collection of notes (extensions) that you can add to your chord voicing or use as passing tones, etc. when comping.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by billkath

For rhythm guitar players, though-people "just" playing chords-b5, #4 and #11-(or b6, #5, b13) --are the same chord shapes-right? The differences would be how the chord was functioning, and a different choice of scales when soloing?

Same shapes maybe. Aug4th Dim5th, #5 b13 might sound the same but in context (function) they are a world apart. I don't like using #4 at all because it can be confused with sus4 by the reader. #11 for sure.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by billkath

For rhythm guitar players, though-people "just" playing chords-b5, #4 and #11-(or b6, #5, b13) --are the same chord shapes-right? The differences would be how the chord was functioning, and a different choice of scales when soloing?

First of all... Kudos to any Vet. you have my respect and support.

Function isn't as simple in Jazz as compared to Traditional music, what may be referred to as classical theory. What many call the parent scale or key implied by analysis... This will take too much time...
Put as simple as I can... The Chord symbol should imply or reflect more than simply the chord tones. The biggest problem in most of the printed or notated material... is with use of Dominant chords. Because to most dominant is simply a function where the Tri-tone resolves or is implied as resolving, even just root motion etc...
In typical jazz tunes... the chord symbol is just a door for the harmonic areas implied... With Dom. chords there are many doors, or sources of complete pitch collection. Each pitch collection implies common chord patterns, subs, re-harms etc... How one plays the tune.
What is the source for #5... whole tone, augmented... force Altered or 7th degree of melodic Min to fit, Diminished... one of the added note symmetric or synthetic scales...
Those choices have implications also...
If you just play chord tones with a few added notes etc... play the basic changes...you probable won't have to many problems... the actual note is not the problem. But that's really not playing jazz...is it...
If I'm not clear, let me know and I'll try again, I'm pretty fried from too many gigs... and I'm still not done...
Obviously the notation is not a problem... we have ears, and we know what's implied, and through playing the tunes ...we know what doors or choices of harmonic areas are implied... even if the notation doesn't actually say that. But it's pretty amazing how many players don't know what door or choice of harmonic area is implied... I'm lousy at analogies... but it's almost like bad driving habits... if you don't have a wreck or hear about it... you begin to think your driving safely... anyway... you may crash or you may not... are you lucky. Reg

[Henry Mars]

Functionally it is a dominant 7b5. Which can also can be used as an dom 7#11. Don't read more into it than there is.
I'm sure that it is possible to split hairs, but it is really isn't necessary?

[Henry Mars]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Same shapes maybe. Aug4th Dim5th, #5 b13 might sound the same but in context (function) they are a world apart. I don't like using #4 at all because it can be confused with sus4 by the reader. #11 for sure.

BTW I agree with you.
When I started playing in church I started to encounter really strange chord notation like F2, F2+4, F4 etc. I had to disect the piano music to figure out what the harmonically correct voicings were. Sometimes the chords that are notated make no musical sense.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Henry Mars

Functionally it is a dominant 7b5. Which can also can be used as an dom 7#11. Don't read more into it than there is.
I'm sure that it is possible to split hairs, but it is really isn't necessary?

I don't think it's splitting hairs to say there's a difference between Gb and F#.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Henry Mars

BTW I agree with you.
When I started playing in church I started to encounter really strange chord notation like F2, F2+4, F4 etc. I had to disect the piano music to figure out what the harmonically correct voicings were. Sometimes the chords that are notated make no musical sense.

I with you on that one.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by Henry Mars

Functionally it is a dominant 7b5. Which can also can be used as an dom 7#11. Don't read more into it than there is.
I'm sure that it is possible to split hairs, but it is really isn't necessary?

hey Henry... Maybe not....But there's the perfect example... when someone notates a Dom7b5 ... the majority of the time they don't mean Altered from MM, or 5th degree from Double Har. Maj, or what ever you want to call the I chord from that collection of pitches or Dim. Or even augmented or whole tone with enharmonic spellings.... they are usually implying Lydian b7 from Melodic Min. Which can ...function the same... if by function you mean resolution or implication of the resolution of the tri-tone... but very often in jazz as well as blues that dom chord does not have Dom. Function. Can be used somewhat in a modal style of function, which again is extremely different in function as well as resolutions. I'm not trying to split hairs... but your demonstrating exactly what I'm talking about, and your the majority. But you could be correct... does not really ever come into context with most, let alone be able to actually hear/play. But when I see questions about notation I try and explain what's actually going on, not accepted misconceptions. Reg
Sorry man if I'm picking on your post... I don't mean anything personal etc... This has been one of many issues I've been trying to help with awareness in jazz context for a while...

[Henry Mars]

In the context of lead sheets the difference between a +4 an a b5 is splitting hairs but I agree in the full musical context of a an arrangement the difference matters. Abersold is the only place I have seen +4 chords indicated on lead sheets. It is a stupid way of indicating an +11 chord.
With out the piano arrangement I got no idea of what the proper chord notation is.
What about slash chord notation? Convenient but sometimes very wrong.

[JazzFanatik]

Hey guys, wow i see i missed a lot. Sorry i was out of town...Someone asked what context I saw it in, and I saw it from Wes' "Four on Six" It said:
C- F7+4 Bb- Eb7+4 A- D7+4 Eb- Ab7+4

Maybe that will help? Sorry i didn't include that the first time, i guess i assumed it was probably a really simple answer.

So in THAT context, would that mean basically to raise the "4"? or a #11 as some would say?

[mr. beaumont]

That's absolutely what it means.

[JazzFanatik]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

That's absolutely what it means.

GREAT! Thank you SO much! I was hoping it would be simple

So could I assume that anytime i see a +whatever that it means to raise that note?

Or is that too far of an assumption?

For example in that same song, it says:

Bb G- G#- A- D7+9

So that D7+9 means to just raise the 9 a half step, correct?

[mr. beaumont]

"+" in it's simplest form means "augmented"--raised.

If you see a chord like D+--it's a D augmented chord, Root, 3rd, raised 5th.

Folks use the + to mean other raisings of notes too, which I hate. But yeah, for the most part, C7+9 is synonymous with C7#9.

I hate this, because when you get into some regional styles, or charts made by "unschooled" musicians, I have seen the + mean "add." This is a HUGE pain in the ass, especially when going in "cold."

While I disagree with the notation in your book, it appears to be consistent--"+" = "#"

[JazzFanatik]

Cool, thanks so much that helps me a LOT. Thanks Bro!

[kambor]

Originally Posted by Henry Mars

Functionally it is a dominant 7b5. Which can also can be used as an dom 7#11. Don't read more into it than there is.
I'm sure that it is possible to split hairs, but it is really isn't necessary?

Hi! I must disagree here, as a b5 implies a natural 11 and viceversa. I don't think is splitting hairs to know which tensions are available to play. Maybe wich a bass drums trio there's not much to it, but when playing with piano players or vibes, that accidental can make a whole difference. Just my .02

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

"+" in it's simplest form means "augmented"--raised.

If you see a chord like D+--it's a D augmented chord, Root, 3rd, raised 5th.

Folks use the + to mean other raisings of notes too, which I hate. But yeah, for the most part, C7+9 is synonymous with C7#9.

I hate this, because when you get into some regional styles, or charts made by "unschooled" musicians, I have seen the + mean "add." This is a HUGE pain in the ass, especially when going in "cold."

While I disagree with the notation in your book, it appears to be consistent--"+" = "#"

Couldn't agree more. + always means augmented; and any other usage to mean "add", "sharp", "raise", etc. is plain wrong.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by kambor

Hi! I must disagree here, as a b5 implies a natural 11 and viceversa. I don't think is splitting hairs to know which tensions are available to play. Maybe wich a bass drums trio there's not much to it, but when playing with piano players or vibes, that accidental can make a whole difference. Just my .02

Hey Kambor... not always...but your on the right track and that's the point I've been trying to make for a while... If your not implying standard harmonic motion... (what was implied in the jazz standards). Notation is how you spell out what you want. I guess the problem is most musicians don't understand harmony... not simply a harmonic style but the concept of how harmony works.(It's not simply function and voice leading).... Anyway how we notate chords is how we imply where the chord is from, what harmonic concept or organizational system or method we're using or implying. Can be as simple as implying modal, HM, MM or any collection of pitches as source for harmony structure. It's not the actual note being spelled out... it's the rest of the notes as well as harmonic concept, which will influence how we play the tune... As I've posted many times... the actual changes that are notated are simply an outline ... a very basic harmonic guideline. For every chord notated... we may play ten additional changes... which could be chord patterns, sub's etc... it's similar to melodic development or embellishment but instead your working with changes... and many times it's expected, just not notated. The longer you've been playing jazz the better you understand what's implied.... that is if you actually listen.... which obviously most don't or haven't reached a level where they're able to... But that should be where your trying to get, if you really want to play jazz. Sorry to be so pushy and straight to the point... and if your a beginner, it's probable over the top. But don't be a beginner for ever...Reg