What chord progression?

[kpearson]

I have a chord progression and I am trying to figure out what the progression format is(ii V I, etc). The chords are Bmin11-Emin9-D#9. I have looked at all of the notes of the major scale in all keys and I can't find it. For example E major has these notes, but the B is major, the D# is diminished and the E is major as well. Any advice?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

It's vi-ii-V in D major. The D# chord is a tritone sub for an A7.

[kpearson]

Thanks. I need to read up on what tritone substitutions are.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by kpearson

Thanks. I need to read up on what tritone substitutions are.

Probably the easiest and most common sub out there.

Think about any two dominant chords a "flat fifth" apart (that's the tritone)

The third and seventh, the most important notes, of the first chord are present in the second, but their roles have reversed...

What? You say...

A7: A C# E G

D#7: D# G A# C#

Because those chords have those important notes in common, they can be substituted for one another.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The third and seventh, the most important notes, of the first chord are present in the second, but their roles have reversed...

What? You say...

A7: A C# E G

D#7: D# G A# C#

...But D# > G = a diminished 4th...

[monk]

If we're going to talk about the flat fifth of A, the "correct" note would be Eb rather than its enharmonic equivalent D#.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by kpearson

Thanks. I need to read up on what tritone substitutions are.

One thing tritone substitutions are useful for is creating a more smooth bass line on the 6'th string, thus streamlining the voiceleading of a progression. Say, when you play a III-VI-II-V-I progression with "shell chords", you can use tritone subs for the dominant chords and have the bass note of the chord descend neatly in four succesive ½ steps to the tonic (those bass notes will then alternate between the root and the 5'th of the chord).

However, be sure to have consensus beforehand with the other band members on where to use tritone subs. If the bass player plays A (the root of A7) and you play an Eb7 chord (the tritone sub of A7) with Bb (the 5'th of the Eb7 chord) on the low E string, it will clash, as the two notes are only a small second apart. Small seconds can be used for deliberate "special effects", but when when they occur by accident in a lush ballad, they certainly won't sound pretty. If in doubt what the others will play, you can safely omit the 5'th and only play the 3'rd and the 7'th - the character of dominant chord will still be there.

[kpearson]

Now I'm really lost! Thanks for the advice....I'm just not that far in my knowledge of theory yet.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by kpearson

Now I'm really lost! Thanks for the advice....I'm just not that far in my knowledge of theory yet.

You'll have plenty of time to learn about tritone subs and other reharm concepts. First get the
ii7 - V7 - IM7 down. You need to know that like you know your name if you want to play jazz. Here it is in all keys:

0 - DFAC > GBDF > CEGB

b - GBbDF > CEGBb > FACE

bb - CEbGBb > FACEb > BbDFA

bbb - FAbCEb > BbDFAb > EbGBbD

bbbb - BbDbFAb > EbGBbDb > AbCEbG

bbbbb - EbGbBbDb> AbCEbGb > DbFAbC

bbbbbb - AbCbEbGb > DbFAbCb > GbBbDbF

bbbbbbb - DbFbAbCb > GbBbDbFb > CbEbGbBb

####### - D#F#A#C# > G#B#D#F# > C#E#G#B#

###### - G#BD#F# > C#E#G#B > F#A#C#E#

##### - C#EG#B > F#A#C#E > BD#F#A#

#### - F#AC#E > BD#F#A > EG#BD#

### - BDF#A > EG#BD > AC#EG#

## - EGBD > AC#EG > DF#AC#

# - ACEG > DF#AC > GBDF#

[kpearson]

Do you mean knowing what all the chords are for each ii V I progression in each key or are you referring to the notes to solo in each progression?

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by kpearson

Do you mean knowing what all the chords are for each ii V I progression in each key or are you referring to the notes to solo in each progression?

These are the ii7 - V7 - IM7 chords in all keys. Play them as chords and especially as arpeggios. The letter names are the chord tones. CEGB = R357 etc. The chart may seem intimidating and/or overwhelming but if you study it carefully you will see that there's nothing but overlap and repetition. Starting with DFAC - GBDF - CEGB (key of C major) you begin the journey via the cycle of fourths (fifths) until you finish back where you started. (I should have listed C major again at the bottom after G major.) This is the best way to begin because root movement in perfect fourths takes you ascending through all the keys. And it's a great way to learn all the notes on your guitar if you don't know them already! Play them in all positions. When you get a handle on them then try 'em out on a standard. "All the Things You Are" is a great one to practise them on.... After you get these down you'll be in great shape and ready to learn the extensions and alterations, i.e. 9ths, 11ths, 13ths etc. R357 chord tones first, IMHO.

[kpearson]

I have another question; my understanding is that on progressions like this you solo in the key of each chord change throughout the song. I always solo in the key the song starts in and I stay in that key the entire time just like in blues or rock style. Why solo to every chord change?

[mr. beaumont]

Because that's jazz!

And few jazz tunes will stay in key.

Didn't mean to cause any confusion with the D#--just tried to extrapolate on the previous example.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by kpearson

Why solo to every chord change?

Here's my suggestion to get you started. Start with the first key, C major and try playing a solo using only the chord tones over each chord: ii7 (Dmin7) only play DFAC; V7 (G7) only play GBDF; IM7 only play CEGB. All other notes are considered wrong for the purposes of the exercise. This forces you to learn the chord tones thoroughly. When you're cookin' in C major, move on to F major, etc. until you've completed the cycle through all keys. Take your time and spend lots of it on each key. Use different rhythms. The possibilities are endless. Fun stuff and all with just chord tones. The chart is handy to have for reference. Index cards (one for each key) are great too. I realise it may be not everyone's cup of tea but it has been very helpful to me. It's very easy to apply it to a tune too. Pick one from The Real Book that has lots of ii7 - V7 - IM7s. All the best...

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Because that's jazz! And few jazz tunes will stay in key. Didn't mean to cause any confusion with the D#--just tried to extrapolate on the previous example.

No prob. It all serves to increase awareness of theory. As for keys, so true; I've seen the following quote in more than one jazz methods book: "Practise all things in all keys."

[kpearson]

Will do. Thanks!

[oldane]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Because that's jazz!

Well, that goes for modal jazz, I think. Before that, soloists most often stayed on the same basic scale as long as the tonal center didn't change - of course coloring the line with alterations and extentions (more and more as jazz evolved). Charlie Parker once explained that he developed his style by creating a horizontal melody line from the higher extentions of the chords united by appropiate passing notes - a "horizontal" approach as opposed to the "vertical" approach of modal playing.

It was only after the advent of modal jazz that soloists began to think of specific scales for each chord. I bet that Lester Young didn't think about what scale to play over what chord when he floated beautifully and utterly relaxed above the band. He thought of what beautiful melody he could play on the scale of the tonal center. Sometimes he even continued his melody despite a change in tonal center. Some has referred to this as being an early example of "modal" playing, but in fact I think it is the opposite - by doing this, he more or less disregarded the underlining chords. One thing he always thought about, was the lyrics of the songs as it helped him to establish a mood for his solos (just listen to the beauty and melting tenderness of his solo in Billie Holidays "This Years Kisses" (1937) - no running up and down chords here).

[monk]

Most swing players, including Lester Young, thought in terms of chords. They created their melodies from chord tones and connected the chord tones with passing tones. That Lester Young was one of the most melodic swing improvisors is inarguable, that he disregarded the chord progression is.

Here is a link to a page with a transcription of Young's famous solo to Lady, Be Good. Reading through the solo will show that Young used chord tones that outlined or followed the chord progression of the song and connected them with passing tones.

Joe Giglio-Jazz Guitarist/Vocalist/Composer...

[oldane]

Originally Posted by monk

Most swing players, including Lester Young, thought in terms of chords. They created their melodies from chord tones and connected the chord tones with passing tones. That Lester Young was one of the most melodic swing improvisors is inarguable, that he disregarded the chord progression is.

Here is a link to a page with a transcription of Young's famous solo to Lady, Be Good. Reading through the solo will show that Young used chord tones that outlined or followed the chord progression of the song and connected them with passing tones.

Joe Giglio-Jazz Guitarist/Vocalist/Composer...

I may have put my point too strongly. Of course, swing players based their solos on the chords - or rather the chord progression of the phrase as a whole - else it would have sounded very odd. But most of them didn't think in terms of "what scale goes with this chord". Many of the pre-bebop wind players didn't know too much about formal harmony theory. Lester Young and Zoot Sims (though he is post-bop) are two who has been said not to know much about harmony. However, they must have "understood it by ear" anyway or they couldn't have played like they did. One swing player who studied harmony more thoroughly was Coleman Hawkins, and I think that can be heard in his playing as he plays more "up and down the chords" than many other swing players. If anything, he was a more "modal" player than Young - if it makes sense at all to apply the term here.

I suppose pianists and guitarists knew more about harmony due to the nature of their instrument and their role in the band. There is more than one story of wind players, Charlie Parker included, being helped with "lessons" on harmony by the rhythm guitarist in the band.

Wes Montgomery is normally said to have been "musically illiterate" and he maintained that himself in interviews. But there is a video from his Europe tour where he instructs the other musicians on how the tune goes. He doesn't seem to fumble at all with harmony there. So maybe it was just that he didn't read standard music notation but had the rest well in check.

Miles Davis has told about an incident where Charlie Parker claimed that one could play any note on any chord if it was done right. Davis didn't accept that and said that one couldt not play a so-and-so note on the so-and-so bar of a blues. A few days later at Birdland, they heard Lester Young do it. It sounded right and Bird looked at Davis with a "I told you" expression. But, as Davis said, "Prez bent the note".

As for Lester Young transcriptios, check out Lewis Porter: "A Lester Young Primer". Many of his famous solos from the Basie days are there.

[mr. beaumont]

My "because that's jazz" comment was only supposed to mean that, however you address it, you address the chord changes.

Of course there's exceptions, but the usual suspects always pop up when someone says "my playing doesn't sound jazzy!" And not addressing the changes is often a main issue.

[monk]

Originally Posted by oldane

I may have put my point too strongly. Of course, swing players based their solos on the chords - or rather the chord progression of the phrase as a whole - else it would have sounded very odd. But most of them didn't think in terms of "what scale goes with this chord". Many of the pre-bebop wind players didn't know too much about formal harmony theory. Lester Young and Zoot Sims (though he is post-bop) are two who has been said not to know much about harmony. However, they must have "understood it by ear" anyway or they couldn't have played like they did. One swing player who studied harmony more thoroughly was Coleman Hawkins, and I think that can be heard in his playing as he plays more "up and down the chords" than many other swing players. If anything, he was a more "modal" player than Young - if it makes sense at all to apply the term here.

I suppose pianists and guitarists knew more about harmony due to the nature of their instrument and their role in the band. There is more than one story of wind players, Charlie Parker included, being helped with "lessons" on harmony by the rhythm guitarist in the band.

Wes Montgomery is normally said to have been "musically illiterate" and he maintained that himself in interviews. But there is a video from his Europe tour where he instructs the other musicians on how the tune goes. He doesn't seem to fumble at all with harmony there. So maybe it was just that he didn't read standard music notation but had the rest well in check.

oldane,
We're on the same page here. The notion of what "scale goes with what chord" is a product of the post-modal era (1960s-1970s). It's a safe bet that Lester Young knew harmony in that he was born to a musical family, his father was a teacher and Young played trumpet, clarinet, violin and drums in addition to saxophone.

Kansas City guitarist Efferge Ware is credited with teaching harmony to Charlie Parker.

I've seen the Wes video you refer to and agree that Wes understood what was happening harmonically. Again, we have the example of someone being born into a musical family and both of Wes' brothers also became professional musicians. Wes did not read music and that's basis for his assertion that he was musically illiterate. Older brother Monk said in an interview that he gave 13 year old Wes a tenor guitar that Wes played constantly until getting a six string instrument at age 19. It's probable that the tenor was tuned DGBE which accounts for Wes' quick transition to the six string.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by monk

It's a safe bet that Lester Young knew harmony in that he was born to a musical family, his father was a teacher and Young played trumpet, clarinet, violin and drums in addition to saxophone.

Lester himself has told that he for quite some time was able to fake in old Billy Youngs family orchestra. But eventually his father, who was a strict disciplinarian, discovered that he couldn't read music and told him he couldn't play in the family band before he had learned to read music. Lester told that he wept with humiliation but then learned to read (maybe aided by his sister Irma, who was a comeptent musician) and came back in the band. I think it was Sweets Edison who said that Lester didn't know much about harmony in a formal sense, but he had the most excellent ear (which IMO is the same as knowing about it, only by finding out by oneself).

OT: Lester has also told (he had a great sense of humor) why he switched from drums to sax: It often happened that he eyed a pretty girl in the audience, but before he was done packing up all those drums, all the girls had left. A sax was very fast to pack up.