5/4

[whatswisdom]

Today is 5/4. How good are you at playing in 5/4? Let's talk odd-meters. What is your methodology when you have to count in 7/8 and beyond?... Also, besides the obvious classic "Take Five," turn me on to some cool tunes in odd meters. "Fairytale Countryside" by Art Farmer is one in 5/4 that I dig.

[JohnW400]

For odd meter stuff listen to the whole Time Out album from Dave Brubeck. You could also listen to Mahavishnu Orchestra. John McLaughlin wrote in all kinds of odd meters like 18/8.

In /8 time I look for groups (ex 10/8= 3 + 3 + 4)

As far as keeping time, I read that tapping both feet was a good way . Odd beats left, even beats right I think it was so you get a double left on 3,5,7, ect.

[cmajor9]

One thing that often helps with odd or irregular meters is to divide them into sections. Each section will be a 2, 3, or 4. For example, 5/4 often divides into 3+2 or 2+3. "Take Five" is an example of 2+3, just listen to the rhythm and you'll hear/feel it.

[JensL]

To me the best thing to do was to learn to play through a turnaround or a song with just one rhythm to develop the sense of the meter. Once that starts to get comfortable then I'd take another rhythm and so on untill I feel the meter.

For me it is no good as long as I have to count, it has to be completely internalized so I just feel it.

Here's a song of mine in 5/4.

YouTube Video

Jens

[Reg]

I play in odd meters all the time... Most odd meters are compound meters, usually have a breakdown. 5/4 can be counted a few ways, 3 -2, 2-3 . 4-1 or 1-4. I have to run ... but when I get back I'll play some standards in different meters... The trick it to always make them have a feel or groove. Reg

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Reg

when I get back I'll play some standards in different meters...

Reg - Thanks! I'll be looking forward to checking it out...

[Reg]

Here's a quick version of Afro Blue in 5/4... don't pay attention to my playing, listen to how I make groove or feel almost natural even though in 5/4. If I worked a little on head... could make groove but who has the time...Reg

YouTube Video

[JohnW400]

Man , that's the video of the day


Reg you ARE the groovemaster

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Reg

Here's a quick version of Afro Blue in 5/4... don't pay attention to my playing, listen to how I make groove or feel almost natural even though in 5/4. If I worked a little on head... could make groove but who has the time...Reg

Outta sight, Reg! Thanks for this. If that's faking it then I wanna be a fake too Everything I've seen you do so far has been fingerstyle/Wes-style. Maybe talk some time about your right-hand approach--pick/combination/hybrid stuff, if you feel like it...

[sc06yl]

I dig that Reg.

I was lucky enough to have small ensemble this year with a leader who is drummer...he mashed playing odd time signatures and groupings into our brains quite a bit. I found that some of the cooler stuff comes from regrouping 4/4 accents or arranging 4/4 in 12/8, and grouping the 12/8 in odd groups, like 123121212312. It was a lot of work at first, he also would do things like call standards and yell time signatures at us as we blowed through them, I found blowing over them less difficult than comping through the changes.

Brad Mehldau plays quite a few standards in odd time signatures. His band grooves so hard, you may not notice at first. Most guys I know who play standards all the time at gigs, rarely keep them all in 4 or 3. You should feel comfortable playing in 5 7 and 11 at the very least.

[abdke99]

Lots of balkan music is in odd-meters (because of otoman influence, specially macedonian music) 5/4, 7/8, 11/8 so we kinda grow up listen to that so i relate it to melody dont think much or count rythm, here is the great macedonian (ex Yugoslavia) player Vlatko Stefanovski his famous Jovano Jovanke

YouTube - Vlatko Stefanovski Jovano, Jovanke

at start he counts 123 12 12 - 7/8 or if its 11/8- 12 12 12 123

all the best
kerim

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by sc06yl

You should feel comfortable playing in 5 7 and 11 at the very least.

Although not jazz, my favorite example of a 5/4 groove is Nick Drake's acoustic guitar right hand patterns on his song "River Man."

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Although not jazz, my favorite example of a 5/4 groove is Nick Drake's acoustic guitar right hand patterns on his song "River Man."

I love that tune.

YouTube Video

[lEniouhundurl]

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[JonnyPac]

Here's some original odd-time stuff...

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

I love that tune.

Nice one! Never new this was covered by a jazzer. Thanks, Jonny.

[JonnyPac]

Right on... This is a fav in 7/4... So good!

YouTube Video

[JonnyPac]

BTW any cinematic orchestra fans here? They're great.

[whatswisdom]

Here's a fun way to start your day:

Odd Time Obsessed Internet Radio & Blog, Odd Meter Music, Odd Time Signatures, Odd Time Songs, Unusual Time Signatures, Odd Rhythms

[TommyD]

Tapping your foot: boom-bah-de boom, Boom-PAH! boom-bah-de-boom, Boom-PAH! boom-bah-de-boom, Boom-PAH!
Laugh if you want, but rhythms are about hearing them, not analyzing them intellectually, and the only way you'll ever hear them is to sing them while banging your foot or hand. That's what Dave Brubeck did.
He said when the band went abroad he heard on the street, (counting fast!)
123456 - 1234, 123456 - 1234 . . . around which he wrote Blue Rondo Alla Turk.

tommy/

[timscarey]

I agree that 2's and 3's are the best way to read odd time.

When it comes to soloing or composing on an odd groove, I rely on a bassline or bass drum patterrn that I can move my body to.

I feel like to really play on odd meters, especially 5/4 you have to feel it rather than count it, for me, after a few times through a form with the same groove, I almost forget I'm in an odd meter and just play with the goove.

I just posted a video in the showcase section of my band playing a tune in 5/4. Its a little different than your average 5/4 groove... but another example.

Actually, its only really in five on the intro and solo section, the head changes meter a few times.

[Extrapolation]

Originally Posted by cmajor9

One thing that often helps with odd or irregular meters is to divide them into sections. Each section will be a 2, 3, or 4. For example, 5/4 often divides into 3+2 or 2+3. "Take Five" is an example of 2+3, just listen to the rhythm and you'll hear/feel it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't "Take Five" be an example of 3+2 rather than 2+3?

[ronjazz]

Originally Posted by Extrapolation

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't "Take Five" be an example of 3+2 rather than 2+3?

You are correct.

Doing standards in 5/4 involves finding a melody that phrases comfortably. Summertime, Charade and Shadow of Your Smile all work very well in 5/4.
I recorded Charade on my last CD, A section in 5, bridge in a Latin 4.

And yet they won't dance to it.

[sc06yl]

Originally Posted by TommyD

That's what Dave Brubeck did.
He said when the band went abroad he heard on the street, (counting fast!)
123456 - 1234, 123456 - 1234 . . . around which he wrote Blue Rondo Alla Turk.

tommy/

I am confident that Blue Rondo is a re-grouping of 9/8. 12 12 12 123.

As for arranging standards in odd-time signatures, it is a task to make it not sound 'forced', especially during the head. My general rule of thumb, its simple to change a waltz to 5/4 by cutting out a beat every other bar. The same can be applied to 4/4 to 7/4 (Melhdau ATTYA). It works pretty good for a lot of standards, ones that don't follow 32 bar form, you may run into a math problem if there are an odd number of bars. Most of the time its easy enough to do it in your head.

[McCap]

Coming from a progressive rock backround I've been playing many odd time meters for years.

My basic rule is: You can count everything in groups of 2 and 3
(e.g. Take Five, Mission Impossible = 3+3+2+2).

If you want to make fast odd time rythms groove, it often helps to try to feel two bars together over a slower pulse. What I mean is:
If you play a 7/8 like this 2+2+3 don't count eights, count/feel quarters! For example a drummer could play straight quarters on the hihat while playing the 7/8 with the other drums.

Other than that just play it. It's just a matter of getting used to these grooves.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Here's a fun way to pass the time of day:

Odd Time Obsessed Internet Radio & Blog, Odd Meter Music, Odd Time Signatures, Odd Time Songs, Unusual Time Signatures, Odd Rhythms

Happy 5/4 everyone

[JensL]

?

Over here it's 4/5

Jens

[pantz]

Originally Posted by Extrapolation

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't "Take Five" be an example of 3+2 rather than 2+3?

3+2 is how I count it too.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by JensL

?

Over here it's 4/5

Jens

That sounds even more difficult

[JensL]

"Yeah! let's do Summertime in 4/5" :lol

Actually Nelson Veras did a version of inner urge in 2/5 (ie. quituplet subdivision), but that is pretty much sci-fi to me.

Jens