Comping without bass or drums - and grooving!

[JakeAcci]

Reg I bet you have some things to say about this...

I just kind of suck at it, at least compared to where I want to be. The best practice I'm sure is just to be there improvising with people but it is something I'd like to address more in the practice room when I can't find people to play with.

I need to put on my to do list transcribing some of Jim Hall's comping...his comping on "I've got you under my skin" w/ Bill Evans is so unbelievably smooth and impeccable...I feel like I can execute those rhythms but I need to learn exactly how he's connecting those voicings in such a musical way.

I'll do some transcription and report back...in the meantime, does anybody have any advice about playing without bass/drums and still actually grooving well?

I think my biggest issues are:

1. Holding tempo over long periods of time (I actually tend to drag rather than rush, especially when things are medium)

2. finding practical, usable voicings to connect

3. Being comfortable enough with all of the above so that I can just listen to the soloist and do my best to support him or her

[whiskey02]

Here's one for you: Jim Hall's "My Funny Valentine" Chordal Comping Transcription

[JakeAcci]

awesome, thank you. Too bad Mr. Kahn needs some penmanship classes, but I will trudge through!

[Tom Karol]

Hmm, I won't say that I'm good at it, but I do it alot; most of my performing is in a duo with a partner who plays keyboard and sax. On the tunes where he plays sax, I'm the entire rhythm section. I find it extremely challenging but gratifying. I use a few different approaches, sometimes all of them in the same song:
Sometimes we arrange a 2-part melodic rendition of (part of) the head.
Sometimes I play faux bass for a section of the song.
Sometimes (sparingly) I play Freedie Green style 4-to-the-bar rhythm.
But most of the time, I approach it as a non-aggressive chord melody with a few bass fills rather than melodic ones.
And I concentrate more than anything on keeping good time - and don't forget that some of the things people hear are implied rather than actually played.
Again, my playing in this context doesn't turn heads, but my partner and the audience both seem to enjoy it, so I think I'm on the right track. And again, I find it to be an enjoyable challenge.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

Sometimes we arrange a 2-part melodic rendition of (part of) the head.
Sometimes I play faux bass for a section of the song.
Sometimes (sparingly) I play Freedie Green style 4-to-the-bar rhythm.
But most of the time, I approach it as a non-aggressive chord melody with a few bass fills rather than melodic ones.

Good thoughts! And, mixing the approaches has to make it more interesting for the listeners, too.

Seems like Jake's initial questions were mostly addressed by more practice with a metronome. It's simple and really valuable, and I know *I* don't do it enough.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Good thoughts! And, mixing the approaches has to make it more interesting for the listeners, too.

Seems like Jake's initial questions were mostly addressed by more practice with a metronome. It's simple and really valuable, and I know *I* don't do it enough.

M, I agree that some of these issues would be aided by more metronome practice. But trust me, I practice with the metronome a LOT. I realize there are some tempos that are less familiar to me (for some reason I think 180-215 or so is awkward for me...I'm just more used to playing a bit slower or a bit faster) and I've noticed when people count things off in that range I tend to pull it back dramatically.

So THAT issue needs some metronome work - I have some exercises given to me about how to keep tempo and I'll just keep chugging away, however, the big picture here isn't just playing with mathematical rhythmical accuracy, but actually grooving...I singled out Reg because in his clips his comps really have a great time feel. It's not just in time, it actually propels things forward and is musical, dance-able.

[23skidoo]

Jake-

I'm just starting out but two things occurred to me reading this thread.

metronome- have the clicks on 2 and 4. I don't know if this is something everyone does, but I started doing it about a month ago and it's amazing how much it helps with the swing feel, not that you can tell from my playing. I feel like I'm swinging more, anyway....

walking bass lines, moving lines through the changes - this is what seems to drive unaccompanied comping, IMHO. Throwing in walking lines in different places around the fret board gives it some variety and forward motion.

Again - maybe this is obvious and only revelatory to me because I'm a noob, but these are things I've been working on that seem to help....

[Reg]

Hey Jake... pick a few tunes and I'll show some quick examples.( I'll play easy versions). To make anything groove there needs to be an accent pattern, different styles have different accent patterns or what we call the groove. There are a ton of ways to groove, single, double etc... They're usually felt or played in even numbers, usually just two ideas back and forth. Sometimes it's just one idea over and over. The accent pattern repeats. To make the groove or pattern lock.... you need to be aware of the pattern, when you do add or make changes, the pattern still needs to be implied. That is you can change what your playing... but the feel or accent pattern need to still be felt. Next there is the more difficult skill of where you play on the beat. By that I mean a little ahead, right on the beat or a little behind. This takes alittle practice.... I'm basically just talking about rhythm now... but harmonically, the harmonic rhythm would be the next level of implying the accent pattern. same rules but your tools are changes. Then on to melodic lines, both bass style and groove lines, same guidelines. Like I said pick a few tunes and I'll make video... it's not that complicated, you'll see and hear what I'm talking about much easier.... Reg

[JakeAcci]

Reg, thanks, that's cool, I hadn't considered that - the accent patterns. I'm usually willy nilly - at most tempos I can keep tempo, but I think I'm a bit all over the place regarding that concept.

Tunes? Rhythm changes. That's always tough for me to comp without a bass player and without sounding stupid. I played moose the mooch with trumpet and alto a few weeks ago and I just couldnt' get in the groove. Another one - There is no greater love. I have a tough time making these tunes groove.

Besides Jim Hall, any recommendations for good groovin rhythm guitar players?

Thanks so much!

[wizard3739]

JakeAcci: Try listening to Ed Bickert, especially on some of Paul Desmonds' releases. "Pure Desmond" is a good example.

wiz

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by wizard3739

JakeAcci: Try listening to Ed Bickert, especially on some of Paul Desmonds' releases. "Pure Desmond" is a good example.

wiz

Oh yeah, good call. That's somebody i haven't dug into much but really love what I have heard. Thanks!

[ronjazz]

If you do a lot of work without bass, try the 7-string. Here's an example of my new trio:
YouTube - ‪Don't Blame Me‬‏