Voicings for Alt. chords

[SwingSwangSwung]

What voicings do you use for alt. chords?

I'm fine with a 7b9, 7#9, 7b5, 7#5, but when it comes to a full fledged "Alt." chord, I'm looking for some ideas.

I gave it some thought today.

If a G7alt. is spelled...

G - root
B - 3rd
C# - b5th or #11th
Eb - #5th or b13th
F - 7th
Ab - b9th
Bb - #9th

Then one easy way to voice this chord would be as an Eb9 chord

x-6-5-6-6-6

Which gives you the following notes out of a G7alt. chord....

Eb - #5th or b13th
G - root
Db - b5th or #11th
F - 7th
Bb - #9th

However this voicing excludes the Ab (b9th) and B (3rd). But you can easily move to this voicing of a Db7/Eb to get the other notes...

x-6-6-6-6-7

Which adds the Ab (b9th) and B (3rd) of the chord, but leaves out the root and #9th..

[billkath]

I'd b interested in the answer to this question, as my understanding of an alt chord is it can have ANY combination of the b or # 5'ths and 9ths-it doesn't need all of them. You seem to be saying that's wrong. When I see G alt I play G7b5b9, unless a b5 or b9 clash with another instrument. If they do, I adjust.

[SwingSwangSwung]

No, I don't think you have to have all the altered notes in there - I just was curious if you wanted to, what are some options for voicings that handful of alterations.

[JEdgarWinter]

Great question.

For a "fully loaded" A altered chord, you might want to try these rootless voicings:

X (0) 10 8 6 6

X (0) 8 5 4 6

X (0) 15 15 13 11

In my opinion, these work better as shapes for single line solos, rather than for comping. Even with a b7 and root, "fully loaded" chords don't seem to work as "partially loaded" ones for comping. YMMV.

[max_power]

Are you aware of Tritone Substitutions? If not, look it up. Tritone subs functionally serve as altered dominants. For a G7 chord, the tritone sub is Db7, which gives you the notes:

Db (C#) - #11
F - 7
Ab - b9
Cb (B) - 3

Therefore, any voicing for a simple Db7 chord will give you a G7 altered chord. Also, if you play a Db9 chord without the root, you have now replaced the Db with an Eb, giving you the b13 of G7 (if it's easier, you can think of this as playing an F-7b5).

[JohnW400]

G7#5 #9/b9
G B F A# D# Ab
3 2 3 3 4 4

G7#5 #9/b9
G D# Ab B F A#
3 6 6 4 6 6

G7#9 +/-5
G Db F B D# A#
3 4 3 4 4 6

G7+/-5 or G7#11b13
G D# F B Db X
3 6 3 4 2 X (2ND FINGER BARRE G/F) sorry no 9th

G7 +/-9 +/-5/B
B x A# Db D# Ab
7 x 8 6 4 4 (rootless no 7)


ditto but it's better with th B
x F A# Db D# Ab
x 7 8 6 4 4 (rootless no 3)

G7#5 +/-9/B
B F x D# Ab A#
7 8 x 8 9 6 (Van Eps barre 6-1)


one quick for +/- 5 is to take a 4 note dominant 7th. Move the 3rd to #4 and the 5th to #5. Then look for the third on one of the two remaining strings


G x F B D x moves to G F Db D# x . possible B on 1st string 7th fret if you barre the G-F or move the low G to B and the F to the fifth string ( 7 8 x 6 4 x) rootless but effective

Lot's more. If bako oo Reg see this I know they'll have more.

[randalljazz]

practical voicings:

C7alt
4
4
3
2
x
x

G7alt

6
4
4
3
x
x

more:

http://jeff-brent.com/

http://members.cox.net/joe.bianco/gu...tor/index.html

[cosmic gumbo]

I'd like to see specific names for some of these chords, instead of just "alt".

[markerhodes]

As William Carolos Williams put it:


so much depends
upon
a red wheel
barrow

glazed with rain
water

beside the white
chickens.

(End of Poem)
Which I take to mean, it all depends on what chords are leading to the "alt" and where you want to go from it. Lately I use 7#5b9, 13b5b9, and 7b5 voicings because they're in the Mickey Baker book I'm working through. They're fine in context, as are good old 7#9 voicings. It's like seasoning soup---sometimes you want a free hand with the hot peppers, other times, not so much.

[Reg]

I think of Altered as pitch collection from 7th degree of MM. except instead of calling it a min7b5 chord as it would be if we spelled in 3rds as most of us do... we change pitch collection to get a Dominant Altered chord or, 1, b9, #9, 3, #11 or b5, b13... and b7. I don't hear or think of b13 as #5... In jazz my ears are already trained, I understand the use of #5, just don't. Personal choice in reference to pulling from MM. I also hear the #9 and b13 as blue notes of target chord or harmonic area, even when the target is a major 7th chord. When I use alter dom. chords in typical dominant use, the complete collection of pitches are implied even when not played... my choice of notes or voicing usually is product of melody, counter-melody, groove melody or simply the lead line I'm playing. *Usually you don't just play a voicing of a chord because you know it... The voicing you play should be working with what ever else is going on, the tune, the melody, the feel or groove, what the other players are playing, the overall shape or how your organizing the harmonic development of tune. Most tunes have a harmonic rhythm, also certain bars or moments of tune that are pivots, ends or beginnings of sections, high points, low point... targets as in actual bar locations or sometimes conceptual targets that develop while the tune is played. This may sound like to many things to be aware of... but there pretty simple once you begin to think and become aware of...
Anyway... stay away from JohnW400's voicings... he has bionic hands.
sorry... actually I always dig all his voicings...I just start to cramp up thinking about them. But John's approach about creating voicings on the fly... take existing chord and alter chord tones and find what ever else you need or want inside of the voicing is on the money... at least that's how I play... I'll make another post of the voicings I use all the time.... One more note... I always freely play between tri-tone subs with Dom. chords... example being A#7alt and E9#11... or G13#11 and C#7alt. Reg

[M-ster]

JohnW's 5th example made me think (which is also Bmaj7(9)(13), by itself):


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But, with a G bass note beneath it, it's Galt (no 7) - or G(b5)(b9)(#9)(b13) for cosmic gumbo. You can add the 7th, though, by making it:


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And now it's G7(b5)(b9)(#9)(b13) (provided the bassist is sounding G beneath it - or Db7(9)(13) if he's tri-tone subbing it).

[SwingSwangSwung]

Originally Posted by max_power

Are you aware of Tritone Substitutions? If not, look it up. Tritone subs functionally serve as altered dominants. For a G7 chord, the tritone sub is Db7, which gives you the notes:

Db (C#) - #11
F - 7
Ab - b9
Cb (B) - 3

Therefore, any voicing for a simple Db7 chord will give you a G7 altered chord. Also, if you play a Db9 chord without the root, you have now replaced the Db with an Eb, giving you the b13 of G7 (if it's easier, you can think of this as playing an F-7b5).

Yeah, I really like the tritone substitutions. Recently I've been using Larry Carlton's thing where when you have a V-I you can use the Melodic Minor a half step up from the V to approach the i.

For instance...

G7 --> C7

Play an Ab Melodic Minor over the G7. Sounds cool and every note in that scale is in the G7alt. arpeggio.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by SwingSwangSwung

Yeah, I really like the tritone substitutions. Recently I've been using Larry Carlton's thing where when you have a V-I you can use the Melodic Minor a half step up from the V to approach the i.

For instance...

G7 --> C7

Play an Ab Melodic Minor over the G7. Sounds cool and every note in that scale is in the G7alt. arpeggio.

It's usually a better idea to actually think of G7 as G7alt and not as G7 with notes added from Ab MM... Usually your still hearing as dominant type of function and not Ab-maj7 or some type of bVI source for note collection... Closer to AbMM would be the 4th degree chord of AbMM or... Db7#11 the Sub-V of C7. And then you would use the Tri-tone Sub of Db7#11, which is the G7alt. chord.
But usually and as LC usually plays...you can think of normal G7 or the V7 chord with #9 and b13 as the blue notes of your target C7, that's how I hear.. The #9 is the b7 and the b13 is the b3 of C7, the "blue notes". Those are two different ways,(of many), to get altered tensions for V7 chords...with a structural method of organizing where you pull from, which tends to help give your playing more balance or at least less harmonic conflicts...You know... sometimes you feel as though your playing better, your hearing better lines etc... many times it's simply your choices or sources of...are better organized... Reg

[JohnW400]

Cosmic, I don't know if you were refering to my post but I put the names in just the same.

One more

B D# Ab D F A#
7 6 6 7 6 6

or B D# G# D F Bb which is Bb|G#m/b polychord of which , there are a couple more. Like thinking Db over Eb plus a B bass, but that would only work on Randalls 10 string B Eb G Bb Db F Ab. ( but usable as a pitch collection)

BTW one of my favorite 7b5#9 voicings is G x F B Db A# 3 x 3 4 2 6. youwould finger it as 1 x 2 3 1 4 using a Van Eps barre. I think Reg would enjoy that one.

And Reg. I saw the charts you're playing. After seeing them and knowing this is what you do for a living ....It made me wonder how anyone could possibly have questioned even one term that you posted in the theory thread. Those charts are intense. Where can I hear you play? BTW aren't you overdue to post a video?

[bako]

Drawing from Db Melodic Minor for C7Alt.

Start with any voicing from this scale

Ex. (John's voicing)

C--E--Bb--Eb--Ab--Db
8--7--8----8---9----9

1st string------Bb-C-(Db)-Eb-E
2nd string-----E-Gb-(Ab)-Bb-C
3rd string-----C-Db-(Eb)-E-Gb
4th string-----Gb-Ab-(Bb)-C-Db
5th string-----Db-Eb-(E)-Gb-Ab
6th string-----Ab-Bb-(C)-Db-Eb

Move the notes on 1 or more strings up or down to any scale tone that is reachable.
Use any number and combination of strings as needed and as playable.
If you want an impossible combination of notes they can generally be played broken into parts.

The altered is made up of 1 3 b7 + b9 #9 b5 b13
It can also be viewed as Gb major pentatonic Gb Ab Bb Db Eb + C and E
Gb Pentatonic harmonizations create a C7Alt effect.

It is good to know the harmonic implications of a modes intervals and the many possible voicings contained within.
It is a fun way to practice scales.

It is common to combine altered and unaltered dominant elements.
The advantage of practicing harmony from one mode is the thorough harmonic investigation of that note collection.
The disadvantage is we tend to think of them as separate as opposed studying the intervals and color combinations of dominant function as one united family.

[gingerjazz]

Hi swingswang,i learnt a great trick once taking G7 alt as an example as you say the same notes are contained within the Ab MM scale,all the notes in that scale can be considered chord tones for G7alt so if you harmonize the Ab MM scale you can use any of the resulting chords you have generated as a G7alt chord.This also works with the arpeggios for soloing over an alt chord too,if you need help harmonizing the MM minor scale let me know.

[Reg]

My most use altered voicings are the standards...(for G7alt.) I use these or very close when voice leading top note or lead lines... Change inner notes as needed ...
G..X. F. Cb Eb Bb basic version
1......2...3...3...4
And then with lead lines...
X..X..F. Cb Eb G
........1...3...4...2
X..X..F. Cb Eb Ab
........1...3...3...3
X..X..F. Cb Eb Bb
........1...2...2...4

X..G Cb Eb G Bb Basic version
....4..3...2...2..1
with lead lines
X..X.Cb Eb G. Bb
........4...2..3...1
X..X.Cb Eb G. Cb
.........4..2..3...1
X..X.Cb Eb G. Db
........2...1...1..3

X..G. Cb F Bb Db basic version
.....2..1..3..4..1
with lead lines
X..X..Cb F Bb Db
........1...2..3..1
X..X..Cb F Bb Eb
........1...2..3..4
X..X..Cb F Bb F
........1...2..3..4

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by M-ster

JohnW's 5th example made me think (which is also Bmaj7(9)(13), by itself):



But, with a G bass note beneath it, it's Galt (no 7) - or G(b5)(b9)(#9)(b13) for cosmic gumbo. You can add the 7th, though, by making it:


||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-o-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-o-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-o-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-o-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-o-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-o-|---|---|---|---|


And now it's G7(b5)(b9)(#9)(b13) (provided the bassist is sounding G beneath it - or Db7(9)(13) if he's tri-tone subbing it).

Nice. I like this one. Nice 6 string quartal chord. The first one I list is a 6 string quartal from the Ab MM as is yours.

Another quick way is , using your idea, would be to play a bma7 doubling the F# and then raising one F# and lower the other

x B F# A# D# F# to x B F A# D# G.

Another way would be to put an Eb traid over the tritone. B F x Eb G Bb.

I think we can find more like this using other triads to cover other altered notes. Ideas?

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Here's a page from my book with two all-purpose dominant seventh shapes. The altered tones are shaded. You can make a lot of chords from these.

[SwingSwangSwung]

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

Here's a page from my book with two all-purpose dominant seventh shapes. The altered tones are shaded. You can make a lot of chords from these.

Thanks! That's a clean and efficient way to show the options.

[bako]

Harmonization of the altered scale:

Gb---C---E---Bb---Eb---X
2-----3---2---3-----4----X

Ab---Db---Gb---C---E---X
4-----4-----4----5---5---X

X---C---E---Bb---Db---Gb
X---3---2---3-----2-----2

X---E---Bb---C---Eb---Ab
X---7---8-----5---4-----4

X---X---Ab---Eb---E---Bb
X---X----6----8----5----6

X---E---Bb---Eb---Ab---C
X---7---8-----8-----9---8

X---Bb---X---Ab---C---Db
X---13---X---13---13---9

X---X---Db---E---C---Eb
X---X---11---9---13---11

The skill to harmonize all the notes related to a given harmony is fundamental.
In my view it helps build the skill sets necessary to create chord melody in the moment.
My version might be a bit esoteric for some but try it in a way that suits your own taste.

The diagrams VersatileJazzGuitarist presented shows a clear path to the most commonly used extended dominants (root in bass).
Seeing the fingerboard in that kind of intervallic way is great for freely mixing the various extended and altered dominant sounds.
Dominant chords can harmonize every chromatic interval with the exception of the Ma7 which can be harmonized with the secondary dominant of that chord.

[Reg]

Great info., what a team... Man... Richard if you could mix in the tri-tone sub of each altered version, ( for the rt 6 and rt 5 diagram add the lydian b7 sub.), so players could see how they relate and work together... doors would open, not just the sub but the concept... again great info.... Reg

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Reg

Great info., what a team... Man... Richard if you could mix in the tri-tone sub of each altered version, ( for the rt 6 and rt 5 diagram add the lydian b7 sub.), so players could see how they relate and work together... doors would open, not just the sub but the concept... again great info.... Reg

Reg, the book is published. But I'll put your suggestion in my file of changes for the next edition (whenever that might be). Thanks.

You're right. There's so much great info on this thread, I'm going to woodshed it for days.

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Also, the book has a lot of info about tritone subs. They're mostly in the theory section, which is about 140 pages.

Sorry guys for plugging my book. I'm not spamming, just being a proud papa.

[hed_b94]

As said above you can just play with the melodic minor which is half step above the chord.
I think a key thing to remember about full chord alt voicings is that you don't must have the 3rd and 7th in the same voicing.
In diatonic harmony these are needed to get the dominant sound, but here in the alt scale or melodic-minor harmony the sound comes from the alterations. So I'd suggest choosing one between the 3rd and 7th, so you can focus more on the alt. notes.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Reg

Great info., what a team... Man... Richard if you could mix in the tri-tone sub of each altered version, ( for the rt 6 and rt 5 diagram add the lydian b7 sub.), so players could see how they relate and work together... doors would open, not just the sub but the concept... again great info.... Reg

Yep, good point.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

Also, the book has a lot of info about tritone subs. They're mostly in the theory section, which is about 140 pages.

Sorry guys for plugging my book. I'm not spamming, just being a proud papa.

A BIT OFF TOPIC, BUT WHAT IS THAT ARCHTOP YOU ARE HOLDING IN THE PICTURE? IT LOOKS LIKE A JOHNNY SMITH EXCEPT THE INLAYS APPEAR TO BE 100% ABALONE, AND IT ALSO APPEARS TO HAVE ABALONE PERFLING NEAR THE BINDINGS. BEAUTIFUL LOOKING GUITAR BUT I AM STUMPED.

[Sharks]

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

Here's a page from my book with two all-purpose dominant seventh shapes. The altered tones are shaded. You can make a lot of chords from these.

This is great! I use these two shapes for approaching extensions on dominants and it's great to see it laid out like this. I see several options that I never use - so thanks very much.

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

A BIT OFF TOPIC, BUT WHAT IS THAT ARCHTOP YOU ARE HOLDING IN THE PICTURE? IT LOOKS LIKE A JOHNNY SMITH EXCEPT THE INLAYS APPEAR TO BE 100% ABALONE, AND IT ALSO APPEARS TO HAVE ABALONE PERFLING NEAR THE BINDINGS. BEAUTIFUL LOOKING GUITAR BUT I AM STUMPED.

That's my Korean-made D'Angelico EXL-1DP. It's one of the first 200 they made. I understand they no longer do the abalone purfling.

I am the very antithesis of an equipment freak. I've always owned just one guitar. Now I have two, because I picked this up at a friend's house and was just stunned by the acoustic sound. Bought it on the spot. Love at first sight.