Bert Ligon: "Never play chords when comping"

[JonnyPac]

"Never play chords when comping." This usually gets the attention of my guitar and piano students. I'll say this after hearing them comp using learned voicings that have no real sense of direction. "Play melodies." I want them to hear and think about where those chords came from and where they might lead, and make choices based on musical phrases that rise and fall. We hear music in time, which is linear. I want them to consider every chord they play as part of a larger melodic shape.

Like planning any trip: decide the destination, then decide the route. . (It isn't where you came from, it's where you're going that counts. -Ella Fitzgerald) Find a chord that leads logically to each destination chord.

http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/Line...%20Voicing.htm

[JonnyPac]

http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/Theory/jazzGTbasics.pdf

[max_power]

The lesson is great; the title pisses me off.

[JonnyPac]

I have some mixed feelings as well. Good stuff though. There are other remedies to the problems he is facing with students. His books go over them well, but do not address the guitar specifically. I don't think the average guitar student will make it through the 900+ pages of his four books combined. I am a geek for the stuff, and I have a bit of OCD, so I eat it up.

[JEdgarWinter]

That is a very hip lesson! Ironically, as some other posters have noticed, Bert Ligon seems to be, in fact, laying out a bunch of chords in this text-- but urging us to work pleasing line architecture in the voice leading from chord to chord. I think this is excellent advice. And I love the way he lays out the lesson!

On the other hand, there is Gene Bertonicini's approach (at least as he lays it out in his DVD, which is, incidentally, very cool): he claims that he works out the scales up and down and across the neck (much in the same manner as you do in your book, I think, Johnny) and then treats any 2+ notes from, for example, the Bb melodic minor scale as possible A7 alt "chords." This would seem to be an authentic "don't play chords" approach, but I am not brave enough to really venture into those waters-- I still seem to need to think of 3rds and 7ths, etc. But Gene Bertoncini is one of the best compers in the world, so maybe we should abandon chords!

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by JEdgarWinter

That is a very hip lesson! Ironically, as some other posters have noticed, Bert Ligon seems to be, in fact, laying out a bunch of chords in this text-- but urging us to work pleasing line architecture in the voice leading from chord to chord. I think this is excellent advice. And I love the way he lays out the lesson!

+1

[Jazzaluk]

+1

This is a nice way of organizing chords and supports a more spontaneous way to improvise chord melodies ad comp. definitely good stuff.

It yields very similar results as the Barry Harris' diminished 6th approcach, for those who are interested. I think Bert's method is interesting because it is probably more accessible to the traditional way of viewing chords.

The BH method requires a bit more "mental re-wiring", but it is very fretboard friendly and also supports the same "strong-weak beat" chord logic. It is more about understanding chord movement and gets away from ii V thinking. It exploits the symetry of the diminished scale to organize the progressions. Very complimentary to the lesson shown in the link.

Just a bit of a comparison for the curious.

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

It yields very similar results as the Barry Harris' diminished 6th approcach, for those who are interested.

I'm interested. I'd like to hear more about that. I tried an article on it once but my head started swimming a few paragraphs in and I came away with nothing. That could be entirely my fault. (Wouldn't be the first time, either.)

I think Freddie Green is a great example of a guy comping in lines. It's why he used so many inversions: he was keeping the rhythm *moving*. Very cool stuff.

[wolflen]

watching ted greene play...he is comping and playing melody and improvising..careful study of his chord forms and you will see familier chord forms "in motion" ... like what jimi hendrix did with some chords...only to a far greater degree..

when ted would break down what he played ...in almost all cases it is very standard harmonic movement with many harmonic "tricks" thrown in...and a walking bass line for good measure...he would show me four bar passages of comp ideas that would keep me busy for months..using inversions on different string sets - he would stress the relationship of chords to each other...that the "one four five" chords are all within two frets from each other in any key..and using chord scales and their inversions you can create rich harmonic patterns without hurting the melodic delelopment...

play well

wolf

[markerhodes]

On a related front, when you hear the duets of Joe Pass and Herb Ellis, even *they* were amazed at how well their playing meshed even though they didn't work things out in advance. They kept things moving without ever making it sound like busy work. The swing and melody flowed, whether soloing or comping for the other guy.

[JonnyPac]

Here's some thoughts and a bit of my response... I am still working out a lot of methods/ideas.

It seems the moral of the story is: be aware of what you are playing and why you are playing it, and the 4th dimension of time applies to all musical elements, not just melody and raw percussion.

Now on my personal feelings on chords/movement... I hear linear lines in motion, but even upon listening to pure polyphonic music, I hear homophonic colors (since I was conditioned with such like most modern ears). Playing purely for the "color" of a mode instead of the "function" even within functional music is my current fetish. I like the sound of "elegant" voicings, as I call them. Pentatonic voicings, 4th stacks, "Bill Evans" left hand voicings adapted to the guitar are my stand-bys nowadays. I also enjoy the impressionistic ambiguity of chords lacking "essential" chord tones. Jumping in 3rds 4ths and steps is my favorite sound; that just leaves out jumping in intervals of a 5th and higher (and that's pretty forgiving!). I also do not usually use the 6th sting, and use the 5th string only past the 5th fret or so to open the bass register up for the upright. Limiting the range is good for the group effort, and that goes for the top line too.

My question is how premeditated does a passage have to be to make musical sense and work in real-time on the fretboard (not really an oxymoron coming from a shape-based instrument). Large leaps on the neck (not musical) are pretty tough to "see" on the fly. Most CM guitarist make arrangements, which are nearly premeditated as a composition. Ron Eschete was able to play the melody with any device on the spot and walk a bass line on his 7th string, but the rest of us in his workshop will probably never reach his level of mastery. Not every jazz guitarist will go through with classical finer-style disciplines which are usually required to dynamically articulate three things at once. If the goal is to give intermediate jazz players a sense of direction it should have two things: 1. A high probability of working harmonically with the other improvising instruments, and 2. A visual aid/pattern to fall back on in real-time.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

On a related front, when you hear the duets of Joe Pass and Herb Ellis, even *they* were amazed at how well their playing meshed even though they didn't work things out in advance. They kept things moving without ever making it sound like busy work. The swing and melody flowed, whether soloing or comping for the other guy.

Been listening to the "Julie Is Her Name" tracks from this CD:

Amazon.com: Julie Is Her Name Vol 1 & 2: Julie London: Music

Herb Ellis comps on the first 13 songs; Howard Roberts on the last 12. Some good stuff in there. Not to mention Julie London is a fabulous singer.

[wizard3739]

JonnyPac, this is a very good lesson for voicing! I like the way it is presented and the examples are right to the point!

wiz

[oneworld]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Been listening to the "Julie Is Her Name" tracks from this CD:

Amazon.com: Julie Is Her Name Vol 1 & 2: Julie London: Music

Herb Ellis comps on the first 13 songs; Howard Roberts on the last 12. Some good stuff in there. Not to mention Julie London is a fabulous singer.

It's Barney Kessel playing on the first 13 songs...

Julie Is Her Name, Vol. 1 [Rev-Ola] - Julie London | AllMusic

the 2nd recording has Howard Roberts and Red Mitchell playing...

Julie Is Her Name, Vol. 2 - Julie London | AllMusic

beautiful recordings !

[oneworld]

Originally Posted by max_power

The lesson is great; the title pisses me off.

yes, the lesson is great...

the tab p*+#*§ me off...

[oneworld]

'never play chords when comping' sounds provocative but if you think about it
it's a very helpful comment depending on your 'musical environment': Guitar with just a bass, guitar accompanying a soloist (singer or instrumentalist), guitar trio w/bass & drums, guitar trio plus singer/instrumentalist, full rhythm section w/piano & guitar, comping within bigband arrangements etc....
all these different situations ideally call for different solutions. 'chords' are never absolute entities... viewing them as 'linear harmony' or 'frozen melody'
can be a good start getting deeper into the comp business.

[oneworld]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

I think Freddie Green is a great example of a guy comping in lines. It's why he used so many inversions: he was keeping the rhythm *moving*. Very cool stuff.

he was the master of the one and two note (sounding) chords...

[oneworld]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Here's some thoughts and a bit of my response... I am still working out a lot of methods/ideas.

jonny, limiting your range on the guitar is a good idea... and keep in mind that our concert 'middle c' is on the 1st fret/B-string or 5th fret/G-string...so is developing RH fingerstyle technique. and re:'chords'... always think 'from the top down', not 'from the bottom up'... if you're playing with a good bass player !

[oneworld]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

I am a geek for the stuff, and I have a bit of OCD, so I eat it up.

me too...

i got one book by BL...

[JonnyPac]

Thanks, Paul. I really think form top down. I rely on my bass player all the time nowadays. I can't even play a solo gig! lol. I.m all about the group sound and team effort.

[markerhodes]

I'm the opposite---I play alone and am not used to playing with groups. (Whenever I've been asked to sit in with them, I've done fine, which pleases me.) I spend time daily on walking bass / comp things because if there's a bass line in my music, I have to put it there.
I do play along with recordings---BiaB, Aebersolds, actual records--but usually I play alone and always think of everything from the standpoint of a solo performance. Which is one reason I still do some Freddie Green-style comping because it's good for singing over.
My solos have to hang together without *any* backing track, which isn't as easy for me to do as I would like, though I'm getting there.
Somehow I believe this will all make me a better person and some day a beautiful woman will fall for me.... )

[JonnyPac]

Lol. It's all good... All you have to do is *hold* a guitar to get gals.

[paynow]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Lol. It's all good... All you have to do is *hold* a guitar to get gals.

A buddy of mine who's an excellent player has an outstanding luthier he favors for all his repairs. I asked my friend "Is he a guitar player?" and his response was "More like a guitar holder."

[Jazzaluk]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

I'm the opposite---I play alone and am not used to playing with groups. (Whenever I've been asked to sit in with them, I've done fine, which pleases me.) I spend time daily on walking bass / comp things because if there's a bass line in my music, I have to put it there.
I do play along with recordings---BiaB, Aebersolds, actual records--but usually I play alone and always think of everything from the standpoint of a solo performance. Which is one reason I still do some Freddie Green-style comping because it's good for singing over.
My solos have to hang together without *any* backing track, which isn't as easy for me to do as I would like, though I'm getting there.
Somehow I believe this will all make me a better person and some day a beautiful woman will fall for me.... )

I can't believe how well your post describes my own situation. (except that I am married and must resist the advance of the ladies

I treat everything from a solo perspective first. I even drop tunes from my repertoire if they don't work as a solo. (they are not worthy. )

I also find that my solo arrangements supports me quite nicely in small combo settings. Just drop the bass note and comp with the inner lines. The melody is always at hand. I actually build my solo guitar arrangement s with this in mind.

It would be nice to compare notes on how you build your arrangements.

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

I can't believe how well your post describes my own situation. (except that I am married and must resist the advance of the ladies

Ah, ladies find me eminently resistible. When I was younger, I was inclined to couple but no longer. I'm a "loner asshole" and shall so remain.

My arrangements are simple. I spent most of my life as a rock / blues player, so my jazz skills are meager. But because of time spent songwriting, I can often put what things I learn to work in a song I like to play. I hope by year's end to be much better at this. We shall see.

[Reg]

Great posts... I dig reading... can't add much, but the way threads should go...
Reg

[0zoro]

Just found this thread and am beginning to work on it. Very inspiring and interesting. New doors open at unexpected places. Thanks JP!

[whiskey02]

Check this out: Harmonic Techniques to Create Moving Chord Progressions using Three Note Voicings
followed by parts 2 and 3. Lot's of info here.

[NSJ]

Yes, I view this as a primary goal, one that arrives as a fully mature player who has thoroughy absorbed theory, harmony, counterpoint, inversions, voicings etc and has a developed sense of ear training, hopefully bordering on "dumbo" proportions. . And what emerges from all that training? lyricism and beauty.

My teacher has comped for MANY of the all-time great singers in jazz and popular music, and his theory of comping is to create effective counter melodies that go well with what is being sung. As he has said, "if you play like you sing, you can not go wrong".

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by whiskey02

Check this out: Harmonic Techniques to Create Moving Chord Progressions using Three Note Voicings
followed by parts 2 and 3. Lot's of info here.

Great website. Thanks for reminding me of this. By the way, where is Part 3? I have seen to Parts 1 & 2.