Drop 2 Cycle Exercises for RichVincent

m78w · #1 06-20-2008, 11:55 AM

Here are four excerses that Rich asked for, basically the same exercise starting on the four inversions of the drop 2 chord, that run through a 2-5-1 progression through the cycle of fourths.

MW

RichVincent · #2 06-22-2008, 08:34 AM

Matt:
My apologies for not responding earlier. Those four exercises are exactly what I needed and I justb finished writing the first one up by hand to put on the guitar stand to practice. The one good thing that after six different chord shapes in an exercise they start repeating. This will become a core exercise for me9 all four of them) and some months down the road I will probably ask for the 5,4,3,2 stringset, but I have a lot of practicing to do.
As an aside in the back of one of my scale books I found a list of just about every dominant scale imaginable and all the scales that you could play over the. Each chord, in C, had the scale degrees and under that, starting in C, were many different scales and their degrees, so you could immediately see how the degrees of a particular chord fit into the scale.It is an old book by Leigh Powers, called The Scale Book, not terribly exciting, but sometimes it is one or two pages that make the book worthwhile.
Thank you very much for the exercises.
Rich

m78w · #3 06-22-2008, 08:56 AM

The other cool thing to notice is that every second key has the same chord tone in the bass. So for the first one it alternates R 5th R 5th, then the second is 3rd 7th 3rd 7th, the third one is 5th R 5th R, and the fourth one is 7th 3rd 7th 3rd etc.

It makes it easy to think of once you get the pattern going.

Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll have to check it out.

MW

Sailor · #4 07-08-2008, 09:02 PM

I feel ignorant but I can't get drop2s conceptually or visually the way I've seen them presented. I'm sure I play them all the time but I'm confused if they are inversions or just different string placements?

Can someone show a few BASIC examples; I'm sure I can then apply them quickly!

Thanks for your patience, Sailor

m78w · #5 07-08-2008, 09:16 PM

Sure thing, Drop 2's are always arranged on adjoining strings so like, 6543, 5432 and 4321 and are built like so:

R 5 7 3

3 7 R 5

5 R 3 7

7 3 5 R

Hope that helps,
MW

Sailor · #6 07-08-2008, 09:52 PM

MW thanks but can i see this related to like a CMaj7 so I can really get it. I'm a classical musician and even though I play tons of jazz chords and standards I'm confused by the lingo!!

Thanks for your patience, Sailor

m78w · #7 07-08-2008, 09:55 PM

No problem, here are the Cmaj7 chords in Drop 2, Root Position and all 3 inversions.

C G E B

E B C G

G C E B

B E G C

Hope that helps,
MW

Sailor · #8 07-08-2008, 10:10 PM

can you list strings with these?? I'm sure this will stop the insanity!!

Sailor

m78w · #9 07-08-2008, 10:17 PM

Sure, you can play any of those notes in that order on 6543, 5432, or 4321.

So you can play a Cmaj7 chord with C on the 5th string, G on the 4th, B on the 3rd and E on the second. That's a root position Drop 2 Cmaj7 voicing.

MW

Sailor · #10 07-08-2008, 10:49 PM

I'm embarassed to say that I'll need to see a chord chart. I've read the whole arnie berle jazz guitar book and he shows hundreds of chords but never uses the phrase drop2. I must use all these chords daily in my songs I just can't grasp the actual def.

MW thanks for all your responses to me and other newbies; this is what makes this forum so fun. Everyone is kind and patient!

Sailor

RichVincent · #11 07-09-2008, 02:53 AM

Hey Sailor:
If you scroll up to the first post of this thread there are four files of drop 2 exercises that Matt posted. They are great and probably what you are looking for.
RichVincent

m78w · #12 07-09-2008, 07:40 AM

Hey Sailor,
Here are the drop 2 voicings for all the basic chord forms, hope this helps.

MW

Sailor · #13 07-09-2008, 12:49 PM

Matt and Rich - thanks for staying with me on this. I totally grasp the voicings, in C for now. I already play all these chords and inversions but my jazz books don't refer to them as drop2. Is the drop2 always the top note of the chord dropped to the second to the top?? (regardless of inversion?)

As a classical musician we only use 53, 63, and 64 to notate inversions, (intervals above the bass). I'm just trying to adjust my thinking for jazz!

Were these always reffered to as drop2??

Thanks again, Sailor

m78w · #14 07-09-2008, 01:01 PM

In jazz we don't use the classical notation for inversions, we just say, root position, 1st, 2nd and 3rd inversions.

And you're right, just think of the second note of any inversion of the closed position chord raised an octave. That's how these voicing's are built.

And as far as I know they've always been called drop2 voicings, at least in a jazz context.

MW

Sailor · #15 07-09-2008, 05:58 PM

The 1573 chart really helps a lot!!

If the definition is just raising the 2nd note of a 7 chord up an octave aren't there many more drop2s?

The inversion only tells you what's in the bass, not the arrangement of the other chord tones.

R357,R375, R573, R537,R735,R753 x 3 more inversions. 18 possible drop2s for every inversion of every chord??

Also one jazz site says that you take the second (highest) note in a chord and drop it to the bass to make a drop2??

love your input
Sailor

m78w · #16 07-09-2008, 06:13 PM

Hey Sailor,
I think you are over thinking the whole Drop 2 process, and maybe making it a bit more confusing than it might be.

The way I was taught, and what I think works the best to remember these chords, is to think of them this way.

A drop 2 chord is one that has the following voicings:

R573 Root Position

37R5 First Inversion

5R37 Second Inversion

735R Third Inversion

And can be played on the string groups 6543, 5432 or 4321.

I don't think what we label the chords is that important, for me the most important thing is that if I am comping or playing a chord melody or chord solo that I have voicing's under my fingers to fit the changes of the tune. I don't really think about what they are called, more of how would this sound fit over what I'm playing now.

I did practice all of these chords and more, Drop 3's, Drop 4's, Drop 2&3's, Drop 2&4's, Fourth Voicings etc, but in the end only the voicings I liked made it into my playing.

So maybe just try playing through the different grips and see which ones really catch your ear, then try using those voicing's for a while in your playing until they become boring and you feel you need to learn some new ones.

MW

Sailor · #17 07-09-2008, 07:12 PM

Matt thanks. I overthink everything when it comes to theory!
Classical studies were so formal,(rigid), and you just play exactly what's written. I think that's what brought me to jazz; a lot of cool grey area and lot's of artistic and intellectual possibilities.

Is there a definitive method book for jazz? There are thousands of classical ones and in some ways they all stink. I did like Frederick Noad Solo Guitar Playing second edition volume 1; out of print but available @ amazon. A great book for any guitarist. I need a jazz method book that is somewhat advanced but correctly graduated.

Thanks, Sailor

m78w · #18 07-09-2008, 07:15 PM

My best advice would be to study with a jazz guitarist in your area. The best way to learn jazz is to play with somebody who really knows their stuff and to hear good jazz being played on a regular basis.

If there isn't a local teacher for you I would suggest checking out Mike's Master Classes - Home, great videos from great players.

MW

Sailor · #19 07-09-2008, 09:34 PM

Matt - do you plan to play any gigs in the boston area?? I saw some of your vids; very nice relaxed style - exactly what I'm going for.

Also I still play nylon string(electric cut away) left over from classical days. Do any serious jazz players use this type of guitar?

Sailor

m78w · #20 07-09-2008, 11:40 PM

Hey Sailor,
Thanks for the kind words about my playing, I really appreciate it. I don't know if I'll get out east this year, I'm teaching in Michigan all summer and most of my gigs are in the midwest during the year. If I do I'll let you know.

There are a few guys who play nylon in a jazz style, two of my favorites are Gene Bertonicini and Ralph Towner, Lenny Breau also played nylon a bunch.

MW

guelda · #21 07-10-2008, 07:22 AM

Hi all,

think you Matt for those diagrams, nice work

Rgds
Guelda

mhbostic · #22 04-01-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m78w

Hey Sailor,
Here are the drop 2 voicings for all the basic chord forms, hope this helps.

MW

Is thee a possibility of receiving all of these in chord charts instead of music notation?

mhbostic

m78w · #23 04-01-2009, 01:11 PM

I don't have the chord charts readily available, you can find them all in Ted Green's book called Chord Chemistry, and it's very cheap to buy.

If I get some free time in the next few weeks I can put something together.

MW

fast1 · #24 04-02-2009, 11:45 AM

was checking it out on amazon, heres the link

Amazon.com: Chord Chemistry: Ted Greene: Books

jack_gvr · #25 04-02-2009, 01:31 PM

"Drop 2" seems like a typical in-group piece of word salad, frankly... they are just chord voicings. I do observe that in the way that they are presented in Matt's PDFs, only two voices change at a time, going lower by step to the next circle of 5ths progression. Still, it's just a piece of slangy shorthand which conveys little information to the un-initiated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor

...
Classical studies were so formal,(rigid), ...
Is there a definitive method book for jazz? There are thousands of classical ones and in some ways they all stink. I did like Frederick Noad Solo Guitar Playing second edition volume 1; out of print but available @ amazon. A great book for any guitarist. I need a jazz method book that is somewhat advanced but correctly graduated.
Thanks, Sailor

The answer above, recommending a jazz teacher rather than a book, has its own validity, of course. However, I have a very favorite book, and there are plenty of others besides. My favorite book is called "Jazz: Theory and Practice", by Richard Lawn and Jeffrey Helmer, easy to find on Amazon. It's a complete and thorough introduction to many important concepts that have permeated all popular and commercial music as well as jazz for the last century or so.

For myself, I make a distinction between "jazz theory" and "jazz style". Many years ago, when I had a minimal knowledge of harmony and made a comment about "jazz chords" to a jazz guitarist friend, he corrected me: "There is no such thing as a 'jazz chord' ", he said. His position was that you learn about music or you don't. I have found the theory that I learned from the above book to be decisively influential in my musical development, but I have, personally, no interest whatsoever in sounding like most of the jazz guitarists I know, which would be the reason for studying with one of them. I listen to them, yes, and I love a lot of them, but the style, from my point of view, is totally obsolete, as much so as a lot of classical music. I don't get that "Satin Doll" etc. really has much to say to any of the people I play for nowadays.

So, Sailor, you might consider my position as a fellow ex-classical player: the tools and techniques of jazz are invaluable for creative raw material, but the time is ripe to work on a style that speaks directly to the people you are playing for now. Too many jazz musicians get involved in the "game" of jazz in a kind of in-group competition from which audiences have long moved on.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this one! Apologies in advance to all the toes I've stepped on. You guys are all great, I know you are all sincere, and I've learned a few things here myself.

604bourne123 · #26 05-19-2009, 07:58 PM

i was just getting into drop2 voicings looking for some insight then what do you know right in front of me/the answers

Stringbean · #27 05-19-2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m78w

Sure, you can play any of those notes in that order on 6543, 5432, or 4321.

So you can play a Cmaj7 chord with C on the 5th string, G on the 4th, B on the 3rd and E on the second. That's a root position Drop 2 Cmaj7 voicing.

MW

I don't get it either. Why is it called a "drop 2" voicing?

m78w · #28 05-19-2009, 10:25 PM

They call them a drop 2 voicing because the second interval of the chord is "dropped" an octave.

So the chord in it's original form is:

1 3 5 7

and in the Drop 2 form it is

1 5 7 3

so the 3, the 2nd note in the chord, is dropped by an octave.

Hope that helps
MW

FatJeff · #29 05-20-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m78w

They call them a drop 2 voicing because the second interval of the chord is "dropped" an octave.

So the chord in it's original form is:

1 3 5 7

and in the Drop 2 form it is

1 5 7 3

so the 3, the 2nd note in the chord, is dropped by an octave.

Hope that helps
MW

This is the opposite from how I was taught. I always heard it that "drop 2" meant take *the second from the top* note and drop it an octave. So

1 3 5 7

in drop 2 is then

5 1 3 7.

This was in the context of big band arrangements, however, where separate horns would play the individual notes. For guitar, these voicings are not easy to finger in a lot of cases, and so when voicing a 7th, I always just think of what note is in the root, and call it a "root position," "first inversion," etc. chord.

It probably doesn't matter much in any case. :-)

m78w · #30 05-20-2009, 09:52 AM

It's actually the same thing, though just from different angles.

1357 can become a root position drop 2 as 1 5 7 3

or

1357 can become a 2nd inversion drop 2 as 5 1 7 3

It's all a bit confusing, I try to just think of Drop 2's, and Drop 3's, as the shapes they make on the guitar. I understand the theory but like we've seen many people think about it in different ways.

MW