blues progression

[Sailor]

I play this progression for 12 bar blues...works real nice...don't get some functions though?

YouTube - ????? ?? dutchbopper

F6/9 /// | Gm7/ Fdim7/ | F6/9 /// | Cm7/B13/ | Bb13 /// | Bb9 (no root) ///|

F6/9 /// | D7#9 /// | Gm7 /// | Fdim7 /// | F6/9 / Fdim7 / | Gm7 /Fdim7 /|

meas 2 is a II-V of F6/9?

meas 4 B13 is a tritone sub?

Meas 6?

Meas 8 D7#9...subbing for what?

Thanks Sailor

[ksjazzguitar]

Hey,

The Fdim7 is what is known as a common-tone diminished. It is a dim7 (or sometimes dimMaj7) chord built on the tonic that resolves to the tonic chord. It seems strange but it has great voice-leading. It is very common in classical but shows up in jazz sometimes, especially as a reharm of the tonic chord. I've never seen it in a blues, but hey, if it works ...

Yes, in m.4, the B13 is just a TT sub for the F7.

M.6, is just a change of bass note. It creates a little sense of movement even though the harmony isn't changing.

The D7#9 is not so much a sub as a reharm (to me at least, although it's a fine line in this case.) It is just a secondary dominant resolving to the Gm7. Remember that any major or minor chord can be preceded by a dominant chord a P5th above (or it's TT sub.)

Peace,
Kevin

[Sailor]

Thanks man! So the common tone dim is not usually in a blues tune?? Could you sub C7 for the Fdim in this case and just make it a regular II-V??

Thanks, Sailor

[Aristotle]

Seems like a fairly straight blues. Most of what you ask about sound like passing-tone chords or connecttor, whatever you want to call that, rather than subs (as in rehamoniztion). Why not just blow right through?

Meas 2, you can look at this as a turnaround back to I, if you want to, but I get a combination two things and both say regular IV chord.
1. Gm7 and Fdim are Bb6 and Bb13b9. Blow man, blow.
2. The diminshed is connector to harmonize the counter point cliche line Bb-B-C, (yes, you can play something else in place of the dim, but you might lose the line).

The B13? Just a chromatic approach? Another connector harmonizing the line G-Ab-G? Every time we slide into a chord, doesn it have to be the flat five of something. (Just a simplifying device that works for me, recognizing the tonal gravity of a chomatic line moving to the tonic like A-Ab-G-Gb-F means never having to do the arithmetic of - Gb chord "works" because C is the V of F and Gb is the flat-V of C. That and playing a half-step above the tonality and coming back; means getting the same sounds without the arithmetic. This leads to the question: does the sub "work" because it's chromatic voice leading or does it work because it's a flat-five. I think it works because of the voice leading and the flat-five is a coincidence).

Meas 6? IV chord? Rootless comping chord?

[Reg]

Hey Sailor... great advice from usual suspects...
I'll give you a different example of F blues, I'll post a video later...late gig as usual...little fried....sounds like he thinking of Route 66. It's sort of a mix of blues styles or implications...The 4th voicing for F is ? it works because he pedals the F through most of his comping. The G-7 and Fdim7 with F pedal on top is really just a sub for the sub-dom IV chord(Bb7). As Kevin said the common-tone dim. or as sometimes called... Auxiliary Dim. which has chromatic function, not dom. is used just like the usual IV chord to create motion in what is usually a static situation. Usually use diatonic tensions, or as Aristotle said play through... I hate Dim. chords, to me most of the time they sound like you can't find the chord your looking for...
The rootless Bb7 or D-7b5 is part of standard chord pattern use on the IV chord( I'll show you the rest of the chords). The rest is pretty standard for playing a blues where you play off more of the I IV chords rather than I V. If you think of playing F7 to Bb7 groove... it will feel pretty standard... One little detail... watch your rhythmic patterns... in blues they need to all tie together. his examples flips the kicks around a few times... best Reg

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Reg

sounds like he thinking of Route 66.

If not, he is making me think of it, because that is what I played along with tube.

[Sailor]

Thanks a ton guys! Yeah...I play almost any standard blues head over this and it sounds great.

meas 2 - realized this was a Bb, (quick four), measure. wasn't used to Gm or common-tone dim.

Where or when does the dominant 7 of the tonic appear in this piece....as the Gmin7?? meas 9??

Thanks, Sailor

[Sailor]

BTW, I'd love to transcribe this,YouTube - ????? ?? dutchbopper, but you've got be kidding. Maybe someone could enlighten me to what he's playing besides minor and blues scales?? I'll just make up my own solo based on this.

Sailor

[ksjazzguitar]

On the common-tone diminished, correct, it is typically not used in blues, but no worries.

I'm not sure I like Aristotle's interpretation of it it as a rootless Bb13b9. Yes, it can be interpreted that way but my question is if it is functioning that way. Sometimes I say that the CTdim is functionally equivalent to a rootless X13b9, but that is usually if it is a II13b9.

Peace,
Kevin

[Reg]

Man... This a simple and not very complex version of I IV blues... you never actually play the V chord, even though you imply as though you are. In blues and most jazz tunes you can and usually do approach any chord with a chromatic approach chord, usually on week harmonic rhythm. The D7#9 is The VI chord and is usually just that. You can think of it as a V of II... but you don't have to go to II and it still stands on it's own... The use of #9 is more a use of the pedal F... or very common use of modal change... so common it's not even thought about much any more... or call it V of II, it does make a difference for maybe one time through...
Play... X-6-7-7-6-X for F13 and X-5-6-5-6-X for Bb9 or the IV chord and you'll hear where his versions start from for 1st 4 bars... or listen to Jimmy Smith... As to the solo on It Don't mean a thing... steady 8th notes... of playing basic changes... sounds like more because of to much finger movement... and picking style... Play your own...

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Reg

Man... This a simple and not very complex version of I IV blues... you never actually play the V chord, even though you imply as though you are. ...

I hadn't thought of it, but yeah I guess that's another way to look at it. I was so busy looking at the individual chords that I didn't see the big picture. I guess that CTdim is subbing for a dominant function in all the places you'd expect a V. Obviously it has different voice-leading, but it has a similar function - it creates a strong pull to I. Good catch.

I guess that I should comment on the Fdim in second to last measure. That is the other common function that we see a CTdim doing in jazz, resolving down to a ii, although it is commonly put in first inversion, making it enharmonic with the biiidim7. The second chord in "Witchcraft," "Moonlight Serenade," and "Embraceable You" are good examples. It is also commonly used as a descent from iii to ii as in "How Insensative" or like starting in m.9 of "Someday My Prince Will Come." Sometimes you see it as a turnaround, I-biiidim7-ii7-V7, which this blues is hinting at.

Peace,
Kevin

[Sailor]

Hey kev...off subject...just listened to your Bach Sarabande...nice...I've been playing it way too fast...love the Aguado too.

Peace, Sailor

[ksjazzguitar]

Thanks,

Those are old recordings, I should redo them. I think the Sarabande is what came out best. Yeah, I don't think it should be too fast. A lot of people take the Double too fast too.

Thanks for the kind words.

Peace,
Kevin

[Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D]

Originally Posted by Sailor

Thanks man! So the common tone dim is not usually in a blues tune?? Could you sub C7 for the Fdim in this case and just make it a regular II-V??

Thanks, Sailor

Straight from my experience, Pac's lessons, and Burt Ligon's Jazz Theory Resources books... a sneaky "common tone dim" is in the basic jazz blues as well as tunes like Doxy or RC variants...

In F: Bb | Bdim | F/C...

The Bdim is a misleading enharmonic spelling of Fdim the common tone dim. In this case, the chord is not Fdim or Bdim!! It is G#dim from A Harmonic Minor. G#dim/B is accurate or G#dim/F the common tone. G#dim is E7b9 no root the V7/iii of F.

Woo hoo.

[ksjazzguitar]

Yeah, that #IVdim7 can be interpreted as a CTdim. It's a bit odd in that the I it resolves to is often unstable I, often as a cadential 6-4, so to me it often doesn't really sound like a CT dim, not in the way that it is often used as an expansion of I. But it is often labeled as a variant of the CTdim7.

I'm not sure I follow your logic that it must be G#dim. E7/F (or just E7) is another way to conceive of the chord, but it is far from the only way. But why insist that it is a rootless V7/iii if it isn't behaving as such? Personally, I think of the E7 as the sub since it doesn't act like an E7. It's acting like a CTdim.

The assumption being made seems to be that dim7 chords must have leading-tone type functions. But that just isn't true. They often don't, the CTdim7 being one of the classic examples - it's function is common-tone, not leading-tone. There are other contrapuntal uses of dim7 chords that fall into neither category, especially from the 19th century on. I think that jazz musicians sometimes want to paint every dim7 with a "leading-tone function" brush. But just as we eventually figure out that not all domininat 7th chords are truly having "dominant function," not all dim7 chords are having "leading-tone function." I think that jazz musicians sometimes have a hard time understanding that.

Peace,
Kevin

[Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D]

I think of it as a typical deceptive cadence. V7 of minor goes to IV of major a lot. E7 to F in C, but in the parallel key of F: E7 to F is V7/iii to I. Simple enough. A HM works great over it.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Reg

or as Aristotle said play through

I did say, "through." And you made me realze why I get peeved when people say play "over" changes and the static melody it implies, and pehaps why the books talked about most on the forum talk about "connecting." If you spent five years practicing "over" and not "through" changes, you probably need a book with "connecting" in the title.

Playing through goes hand in hand with the blues, - and watch this - where the idiomatic melodic pitch collections have so much tonal gravity, they dominate the chords and what the "functions" seem might be when you analyze with the numerology of classical or tin pan alley. Or translation - the blues is the blues, man.

Playing "though" is probably why I would be more worried about the next chord. In this particular progression, the only next chord to watch out for is D7, and in many lines, I would want to be on the F#, about a half-a-beat for the chord actually changes. Who's driving? You or the chords?

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D

I think of it as a typical deceptive cadence. V7 of minor goes to IV of major a lot. E7 to F in C, but in the parallel key of F: E7 to F is V7/iii to I. Simple enough. A HM works great over it.

Yeah, that's simple.

Then again, lines with (Ab)-A-Bb-B-C harmonized above with a repeated F is a set of well-known blues chordal licks. That's simple, too. Simple, but not easy, is wringing every bit of juice out each of those few notes, nudging them in and out of blueness. And not knowing if within there is the b5 of 5, square-root of pi-squared.

PS, I know, I am re-litigating old cases.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D

I think of it as a typical deceptive cadence. V7 of minor goes to IV of major a lot. E7 to F in C, but in the parallel key of F: E7 to F is V7/iii to I. Simple enough. A HM works great over it.

OK, I sort of see what you're saying. But there are plenty of examples of CTdim that are clearly not functioning that way. It seems odd to me to create this convoluted explanation. I think that "CTdim" is a simpler and more consistent definition than "V7 of minor goes to IV of major" or "disguised V7/iii resolving to I as a secondary deceptive cadence." Just because it works out mathematically does not mean that it is what is happening.

The CTdim has a long and proud history. If it were really a disguised V7/iii then I would expect to see it act like one occasionally. I would expect to see that root movement often (in F, E->A or at least E->F) but the most common root movement is either F->F or B->C or Ab->G (if there is an interpolated ii7-V7.) These are not the root movements that I tend to associate with an E7 resolving.

So my arguments against the V7/iii argument is two-fold. 1) It's much more complicated than it needs to be. 2) It rarely (if ever) acts like a V7/iii. Again, I think that it is just hard for jazz people to wrap their head around the notion that a dim7 doesn't have to be behaving like a leading tone. An examination of the classical literature will show that it often doesn't - that is just an erroneous assumption about what a dim7 must be.

And examination of CTdim in context will show many examples where the "V7/iii" would be extremely forced (like the end of "Upper Manhattan Medical Group.") To me it seems unnecessary to have two explanations, one that is simple and works all the time, and another that is more complicated and only sort of works some of the time, if your willing to squint your eyes and tilt your head. I'm not aware that the complexity of the "V7/iii->I explanation of CTdim buys anything - except that it keeps jazzers away from the notion that dim7 doesn't have to have leading tone function.

You can call it what you want, but to me it seems like a lot of work for no gain. I like things to not be more complicated than they have to be.

Peace,
Kevin

[Reg]

Quote from Aristotle...
"Playing through goes hand in hand with the blues, - and watch this - where the idiomatic melodic pitch collections have so much tonal gravity, they dominate the chords and what the "functions" seem might be when you analyze with the numerology of classical or tin pan alley. Or translation - the blues is the blues, man."
Be careful... your close to hearing jazz through my si-fi blue note concept methodology... It will drag you through the depths of dirt, grease and all the lowly bottom trolling, or even worse... playing what you feel/hear and not caring if it makes since... ever check out Rodney Jones... I think he's still at Manhattan School of Music, but I always dig his blue approach. He doesn't tear it up but his solos are always a great ride... very greasy. Reg

YouTube Video

[Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D]

I think playing over the blues in a bluesy way is usually better than the exact classical/jazz changes anyway. Sorry to get OT with overdone CTdim thing.

That said, I am a CST guy, so I want the whole parent scale for any given chord. Deriving it from HM gives me a harmonic launching point. No biggie. I'm happy with it.

[hot ford coupe]

Very nice vid. I really liked what he was doing.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D

...Sorry to get OT with overdone CTdim thing. That said, I am a CST guy, so I want the whole parent scale for any given chord. Deriving it from HM gives me a harmonic launching point. No biggie. I'm happy with it.

I don't think that it is OT at all - the CTdim is the most interesting thing in the progression given.

That's cool if A Harm Min works for you. Personally I like the F WH-dim because it doesn't have any of the notes of the resolution chord in it and I think that it sounds more "diminishy." But they're both valid ways to interpret a diminished chord.

Peace,
Kevin

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Reg

careful... your close to hearing jazz through my si-fi blue note concept methodology... It will drag you through the depths of dirt, grease and all the lowly bottom trolling, or even worse

"You have to suffer if you want to sing the blues." Or at least that's what one kid from Westchester County (same county where the Clintons bought a house - and that's Bill and Hillary, not DeWitt) who went to Columbia U said.

Well, we both heard Jimmy Smith and Route 66 in Sailor's track, what makes you think I am already not stuck in your concept.

So Reg, you like that Manhattan cat because he holds the pick like you?

[paynow]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

"You have to suffer if you want to sing the blues." Or at least that's what one kid from Westchester County (same county where the Clintons bought a house - and that's Bill and Hillary, not DeWitt) who went to Columbia U said.

Well, we both heard Jimmy Smith and Route 66 in Sailor's track, what makes you think I am already not stuck in your concept.

So Reg, you like that Manhattan cat because he holds the pick like you?

Geez, we're classifying Westchester, the beloved place where I was raised, as "the same county where the Clintons bought a house?"

Now I have the blues.

How about the "the same county where Stan Getz lived?" He was a much better horn player than Bill.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by paynow

Geez, we're classifying Westchester, the beloved place where I was raised, as "the same county where the Clintons bought a house?"
Now I have the blues.

As far David Bromberg's suffering so he could sing the blues, would it have made the point better if posted the county median income?

[paynow]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

As far David Bromberg's suffering so he could sing the blues, would it have made the point better if posted the county median income?

[Reg]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

"You have to suffer if you want to sing the blues." Or at least that's what one kid from Westchester County (same county where the Clintons bought a house - and that's Bill and Hillary, not DeWitt) who went to Columbia U said.

Well, we both heard Jimmy Smith and Route 66 in Sailor's track, what makes you think I am already not stuck in your concept.

So Reg, you like that Manhattan cat because he holds the pick like you?

Wow... I never looked...really, I've never meet him. I've always enjoyed his ears... not really his technique... But know that you pointed it out, oh yea, the man can play, great technique...
And as Chaka Khan said"I feel For You", Your refreshingly deceptive with your wisdom... Blues
Someone posted a track of "Pent-up House" that Rodney played on a while ago... was really cool. I'm going to posts some jazz/blues for Sailor today... sometime. Four hour gigs...a few in a row kick my butt. I don't sleep... Reg

[Sailor]

"I'm going to posts some jazz/blues for Sailor today..." cool Reg...home alone for two days just me, my Artcore, and my vintage Polytone MiniBrute.

I'm getting a little discouraged 'cause I'm at one of those points where I'm not making progress...I know it's cyclical...

Might go back to classical for a few days to drown my jazz/blues sorrows!!

Thanks, Sailor

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Reg

Your refreshingly deceptive with your wisdom

I guess that's how I keep coming up with new ways to confuse myself.

Either that, or you're just good enough at interpreting what I post to imagine something is there.

[Reg]

Hey Sailor... I'm slow and lazy... sorry, here's a couple takes of ideas playing some blues in F and Bb, not really organized... check them out and if anything looks interesting let me know and I'll try and be a little more detailed... Reg

YouTube Video

YouTube Video