A Question About Chord Symbol Origin

[Jerry G]

Here's a question that I've been trying to get some verification for:

When did chord symbols (as we know them today) come into being and who invented them?

I have heard from a pretty reliable source that they were first used by Ferde Grofe in the 1920's or so as a way to communicate harmony with banjo players - banjoists being the instrument that wouldn't necessarily learn how to read music in their formal learning. This sounds logical, but I haven't seen anything written down to verify this.

Any thoughts?

Thank you!

Jerry Gates

[ksjazzguitar]

I guess that it depends on what you define as chord symbols. Do you mean any chord symbol or our modern ones.

I know that in 17th cent. Spain and Italy they had as system called "alfabeto" where different guitar chord shapes were assigned different letters, but the letters assigned to each voicing were arbitrary and had nothing to do with the root.

Of course, figured bass could be considered a chord notation system, although it is based on an old conception of harmony, where the bass note was considered the most important note. This was used into the beginning of the 19th century, possibly longer.

I think the best way to tell would be to look through old theory and analysis books. It's and interesting question. I wish I had a better answer.

Peace,
Kevin

[Gramps]

do you mean a triangle for Maj7, and dash (-) for minor? that type of symbol?

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Jerry G

Here's a question that I've been trying to get some verification for:

When did chord symbols (as we know them today) come into being and who invented them?

I have heard from a pretty reliable source that they were first used by Ferde Grofe in the 1920's or so as a way to communicate harmony with banjo players - banjoists being the instrument that wouldn't necessarily learn how to read music in their formal learning. This sounds logical, but I haven't seen anything written down to verify this.

Any thoughts?

Thank you!

Jerry Gates

I'm actually studying this (the chord symbol history will come later in studies though) now in grad scchool for Ethnomuicology. I will reearch and get back with you using what available resources I have! Cheers!

[cosmic gumbo]

I think they were first used in Babylon for lyre players. He's pointing to a Ebm7b5 chord.

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I think they were first used in Babylon for lyre players. He's pointing to a Ebm7b5 chord.

The forst ever was actually dated to Nippur, Iraq dating 14th BCE, in which intervals of thirds appeard on clay tablets. I have a buddy working on Byzantine vocal transcription already. Today in class I learned that
that the three basic instrument families are actually four:woodwind, brass, stringed and percussion. Animal horns adn sea shells such as conches are considered the earlist forms of "brass wind instrumentation." I only thought wood/reed and horns both comprised the wind family, but I guess there are two. Learn sometthing applicable everyday, dontchya

[ksjazzguitar]

But of course notating notes isn't the same as chord symbols. It sounds like you are describing note notation that forms a chord, not chord notation that symbolizes a chord. There is a difference between noting the notes C, E, and G - and just writing C to symbolize them. That's how I understood the OP.

Peace,
Kevin

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

But of course notating notes isn't the same as chord symbols. It sounds like you are describing note notation that forms a chord, not chord notation that symbolizes a chord. There is a difference between noting the notes C, E, and G - and just writing C to symbolize them. That's how I understood the OP.

Peace,
Kevin

oh, my bad-i completely forgot the context of the OP-western Pyhtagorus' well-tempored mathemeatical theory that yeilds "diatonci" harmonic symbols then yeah, I have no idea. I would suspect the Mediterranean region holds a clue

[ZenSkinSoundLab]

I was sure my old piano teacher invented them ... he did sit behind Moses in the 3rd grade ...

[ksjazzguitar]

While we do have some evidence of light polyphony, the idea of an organized system of chordal structures that have a life (and symbols) unto themselves is less than 1000 years old and is mainly a European idea (in origin at least.) That is not a value judgment that European music is better, just that they place a greater emphasis on organized and labeled harmonic structures.

To the best of my knowledge the earliest attempt to label harmony as an independent structure would be figured bass, even if it's based on a different concept of harmony.

But perhaps the OP was getting at our modern symbols.

Part of the problem is that for most of history, people were expected to be able to read music. Even looking through a book that I have on the history of music in the US, everything just have the piano part written out. There just wasn't the conception that there was a public out there that could understand chords but not know how to read music. There just wasn't much value given to the idea that someone would want to improvise accompaniment (not since the days of figured bass anyways.) So it makes sense that jazz might be one of the first places that music with the harmony only suggested instead of explicitly written out.

But there may still have been symbols used in analysis and theory books. I can't remember when Roman numeral notation was invented, but I seem to remember a professor mentioning that it was mainly a 20th century thing, probably developing out of the work of Riemann, who kind of developed the idea of functional harmony. Before that, I think people just wrote things out. Of course there were folk musics (including blues) that had improvised accompaniment, but this was not music that was published. If you look at many of the broadside folk songs from the as far back as the 16th century, they often said something like "To be sung to the tune of 'Heart of Oak'" or something similar - precisely because they new that the intended audience couldn't read music. Parlor songs just wrote out the accompaniment because they knew that someone would know how to play piano.

It would be fun to comb through old theory texts to see if they labeled these things. But with the superficial exposure that I had in some of my grad classes to historical theory texts, I don't remember any. If anyone knows of any, please let us know.

In terms of performance it probably is mostly a 20th century thing, probably mostly involving jazz. (As long as we remember that there were precursors, like figured bass a alfabeto.)

Peace,
Kevin

[cosmic gumbo]

I just ran into this at berkleemusic.com.

Chord Symbols As We Know Them Today – Where Did They Come From? | The Writer's Corner

[ksjazzguitar]

Interesting, but it's just some blog entry. It does go along with the OP's post. The point is that the banjo players didn't read music. OK. But it never occurred to them to notate changes? Jazz is more than a decade old at this point and it never occurred to anyone to have a way to write out changes? Without more confirmation, I find hard to believe that no one else every thought to do it, especially when there was such an historical precedent.

Here's an example of a publication of "St. Louis Blues" from 1914. It has ukulele symbols but no chord names. This is from the LoC digital database:

African-American Sheet Music, 1850-1920

Here from the Duke database is a 1920 edition of "I'll Be with You in Apple Blossom Time":

a0767: I'll be with you in apple blossom time

This has guitar chords and (da-da-da-DA!) chord names. This predates RiB by years so that kind of deflates the bloggers argument. (And really makes me wonder about his researching skills.

I'm sure if we kept looking we could find earlier examples. And this is just in what is published, not including what people did in their notes. Most of that is probably lost, but there might be some old dusty archive somewhere that has them in some moldy basement. Unfortunately most of the papers of early jazz originators are probably lost.

Peace,
Kevin

[cosmic gumbo]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

This has guitar chords and (da-da-da-DA!) chord names. This predates RiB by years so that kind of deflates the bloggers argument. (And really makes me wonder about his researching skills.

Uh, he wasn't making any argument, he was still researching and looking for input. (It makes me wonder about your reading comprehension skills.)

[ksjazzguitar]

Sorry, he referred to it as research and it took me 15 minutes to find a source that contradicted it. It just made wonder what he called "research." And this guy is a professor at Berklee so I set the standard high - I would understand if it was some high school band teacher. Sorry if it offended you.

Peace,
Kevin

[Dad3353]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Sorry, he referred to it as research...

Good evening, Kevin...
Sorry, but he referred to it as...

A question to all:

Does anyone have an idea/opinion/fact about where chord symbols, as we use them today (not figured bass) came from? I’ve heard Ferde Grofé (George Gershwin’s time) and also Jelly Roll Morton. Any thoughts?

The following seems plausible:...

I read it again, and think you're being a bit hard on the man. I rather read it as opening an interesting topic to be debated and expanded on, rather than any attempt to give a definitive answer.
No malice intended, just seemed worth clarifying. No slight intended on your own informed input to the thread.

[ksjazzguitar]

True, but later he said:

From my research it seems that the issue wasn’t so much about a problem teaching the banjo player his part (one of the only instruments that didn’t formally need to learn to read music to play), but the speed at which the music needed to be learned. ... I’m going to continue the research... [emphasis added]

Perhaps I was a little bit hard. I just expect a little bit better from a professor at a respected school, especially since it was so easy to disprove. I didn't say the man was incompetent, just premature. He starts with a story that he deems "plausible" and in less time than it took him to type it, I proved it wrong. Before declaring the theory plausible, I would have asked myself if there was anything predating this. My first thought was to search through the digital archives of old sheet music. He has an MA from Hartt (another good school) so I assume he knows how to do this stuff.

But that's cool. I guess he and I just have different ideas of when it becomes "research." It's not that big of a deal. Everyone relax and take a deep breath.

Peace,
Kevin

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I think they were first used in Babylon

Sumerian, not Babylonian. Big difference.

[ksjazzguitar]

Driving it back a little further, here is one from 1903, with chord shapes (uke) but no chord names:

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcolle...sm.b0603/pg.2/

Here're some from 1913 with guitar shapes and chord names:

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/hasm.a0288/pg.1/

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcolle...sm.a0239/pg.1/

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcolle...sm.a0288/pg.1/



In contrast to that, here's some stuff from 1864. It has a guitar arrangement, but no chord shapes or names - it's all written out:

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcolle...r:1864&rows=16

This goes back to 1829, again guitar part, but no chord notation:

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcolle...asmsm009/pg.1/


Peace,
Kevin