Why is this chord written this way?

[GroovinMovin]

I'm looking at a chord book. One of the chords is an A7b9b5.

Why is the chord NOT written as A7b5b9 instead of A7b9b5? In other words, why is the 9 written before the 5? Is it because the "9" in this case is equivalent to a "2" and "2" comes before "5" numerically?

Also, are both ways proper or is that the only way to write it? Thanks in advance!

[docbop]

There probably is a "Proper" way, but chord symbols and similar notation varies region to region so much it doesn't matter. If can tell what they want I'm happy, I'd rather edit chord down for musical reason not for confusing notation.

[ksjazzguitar]

Yeah there are lots of variations. It would be nice if we got together and standardized it, but don't hold your breath.

OK, but here is my guess - maybe it is more proper to write it that way, because it is thought of as an A7b9 with a b5 instead of as an A7b5 with a b9 added. You are looking at the chord in it's entirety (all the way up to the b9) and then qualifying it with alterations rather than building the chord up the the 7th, stopping to alter the 5, then going up to the b9.

That is just rampant speculation, but it seems that I'm used to seeing chords written that way - all the way up to the highest extension before adding the alterations. I'm just inferring (or imagining) an explanation. But it does seem somewhat arbitrary.

Peace,
Kevin

[monk]

Joe Pass used to name altered dominants with more than one alteration by ascending order of pitch.

If the b9 was higher than the b5, he would call it a 7b5b9. If the b5 was higher than the b9, he would call it a 7b9b5.

He said he picked it up from a piano player he worked with who would use the terminology to verbally clarify note order in voicings to other players in the group.

Regards,
monk

[cosmic gumbo]

Well, since every knucklehead is an expert and can write a book, the world is full of misinformation about playing guitar and jazz, just like this forum.

[mynewguitar]

I've always wondered about that and chalked it up to the probability that there was no standard way of writing the chords and that it was more a matter of taste or habit.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by monk

Joe Pass used to name altered dominants with more than one alteration by ascending order of pitch.

If the b9 was higher than the b5, he would call it a 7b5b9. If the b5 was higher than the b9, he would call it a 7b9b5.

He said he picked it up from a piano player he worked with who would use the terminology to verbally clarify note order in voicings to other players in the group.

Regards,
monk

Well, that at least makes sense!

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Well, since every knucklehead is an expert and can write a book, the world is full of misinformation about playing guitar and jazz, just like this forum.

Ha! Well ... true ...

Personally, I assume my musicians "have a clue" and I don't put chord symbol extensions in my charts. I just note the basic 7th chords. Real players are going to play from their knowledge and intuition, anyway.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Ha! Well ... true ...

Personally, I assume my musicians "have a clue" and I don't put chord symbol extensions in my charts. I just note the basic 7th chords. Real players are going to play from their knowledge and intuition, anyway.

Great comment...cosmic...
Yea... M-ster, very true, especially standard tunes, who only plays from chord symbol all the time anyway. Pretty amazing how many players don't check out melodies, when comping or playing bass lines. But yea most tunes are pretty simple.... best Reg

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by monk

Joe Pass used to name altered dominants with more than one alteration by ascending order of pitch. ...

While there is a logic to that, the problem is that we don't do that for any other pitch in the chord. If the 3rd is on top, we don't write A7b9b53. One of the characteristics of chord symbols is that it doesn't tell you voicing, beyond the bass note.

The other problem is that unless the chord is written out, most of the time the chords are being mentioned without reference to voicing, like in a lead sheet.

I think a system like that might be useful for one person to remember what voicing he wanted to use somewhere, but most people don't use that system, so I don't know what value it would have beyond personal usage.

I don't think that there is any firm standard. Maybe all the jazz people will have to have a caucus at the next IAJE meeting or something and standardize jazz chord symbols - it would be nice.

Peace,
Kevin

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by monk

If the b9 was higher than the b5, he would call it a 7b5b9. If the b5 was higher than the b9, he would call it a 7b9b5.

Regards,
monk

Sounds very explaining to me.

/R