Dumb question

[Badge]

Fellow travellers, Is a dom7 flat 13 chord the same as a dom7 sharp 5 enharmonically? If so, why are there 2 descriptions? Thanks!

[Banksia]

For practical purposes it is the same chord. To be technical though:

G7b13: G B D F A (C) D#
G7#5: G B D# F

I put the 11th, C, in brackets because we would rarely play the 11th in an extended dom7, unless it was written as G7(11)

In practice, I would consider this chord to be G7#5 and G7b13:

3X3443

[Badge]

Thanks! Great to hear from a fellow Australian too.

[Banksia]

There have been a few of us on here but most don't hang around much - typical of forums in general, I think: 5% of members do 95% of the talking.

I am surprised Australia has produced so few jazz guitarists, though. If you watch ebay or your local guitar shop, the archtops seem to turn over in reasonable volume - I don't think it's metalheads buying them!

[fep]

Originally Posted by Badge

Fellow travellers, Is a dom7 flat 13 chord the same as a dom7 sharp 5 enharmonically? If so, why are there 2 descriptions? Thanks!

I think most importantly is the bass players are going to play different lines for those two chords. If you want the bass player to play a D as the 5th of the chord the the chord would be G7b13, if you want the bass player to play a D# as the 5th the the chord would be a G7#5.

Also, to some those two descriptions would imply different scales.

[ksjazzguitar]

I theory, it might make a slight difference, too,

We tend to think of lowered notes as resolving down and raised notes resolving up. So if you're in CMaj, and you expect the #5 on a G7 to resolve up to the E in the CMaj7 and the b13 to resolve down to the D in a CMaj9.

But of course, so many people don't follow this convention that it may be pointless to point out. It gets somewhat followed when writing out actual notes, but for a lead sheet, probably not. I think that they are used interchangeably more often than they are used with specificity. But I thought I'd mention it.

Peace,
Kevin

[Reg]

There are a few differences...maybe voice-leading, or intonation as Kevin mentioned...even though chord symbols in jazz charts usually don't imply voice-leading. Sometimes line cliches or root motion... but more important in jazz... is where they come from, harmonically, as Fep was pointing to. Chord symbol notation on jazz charts is usually used to imply what's going on in the lead sheet... harmonically, especially when melody doesn't spell out enough information. What has happened in the last 25 years is, with use of music programs for composing and printing parts as well as the programs used in most electronic pianos and the like... A system became the standard for chord symbol notation...Printed in mid-70's by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer titled, "Standard Chord Symbol Notation". Anyway there are a few problem with miss spelling of chords... one of the big problem is use of #5 instead of b13 with Dom. Chords. What has happened is even newer versions of Fake books use this system... and many musicians are getting use to the spelling and think of them almost as theory... Best Reg

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Badge

Fellow travellers, Is a dom7 flat 13 chord the same as a dom7 sharp 5 enharmonically? If so, why are there 2 descriptions? Thanks!

If you consider a chord voicing as an aspect of its chordscale, then these two chord symbols suggest two different things.

A G7#5 (or Gaug7 or G+7, etc.) is suggesting an augmented 7th chord and a whole-tone scale, which implies a natural 9th.

A G7b13 is suggesting a dominant 7th chord and either a harmonic minor (C HM) or melodic minor (Ab MM) mode as its chordscale, which implies a b9th (although, less commonly, it could be a melodic minor (C MM) that provides the natural 9th).

I tend to believe that it's older fake books and charts (from less theoretically sophisticated times) that indiscriminantly interchange these chord symbols. In those cases, you can discern, from experience and by ear, which harmony is really occurring.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by fep

I think most importantly is the bass players are going to play different lines for those two chords. If you want the bass player to play a D as the 5th of the chord the the chord would be G7b13, if you want the bass player to play a D# as the 5th the the chord would be a G7#5.

Can I have a second opinion on that? M-ster writes:

Originally Posted by M-ster

A G7b13 is suggesting a dominant 7th chord and either a harmonic minor (C HM) or melodic minor (Ab MM) mode as its chordscale, which implies a b9th (although, less commonly, it could be a melodic minor (C MM) that provides the natural 9th).

If the chordscale is Ab MM, then you have Db and Eb -- no D natural. And when I play C HM over G7b13 I tend to emphasize the Eb and avoid or play down the D, because the Eb is more interesting there.

So, would a bass play really take D as the "5", not Eb? I mean, even if D is technically the 5 (thinking C HM), wouldn't he be more likely to emphasize the Eb anyway?

[Reg]

I would also add that the target chord would help define what the rest of the chord tones could be... I tend to call AbMM Galt and almost always emphasize the b13 or Eb also when I play Bass. I guess where I'm going is how much do you play out of HM... actually use the aug2nd interval... which is what is characteristic... I've been adding #9 for 30 years. I hear bass players using Nat. 5ths all the time...sort of trashes the effect of playing from G Alt and DbLydb7 when going to C something...
Hey M-ster... I just went through a few new fake books, almost every tune that uses #5 is really implying b13... I do have one of the original Real Books... chord symbols are much more accurate... lots of melody problems though... Hell I can't even find a b13 in the Lenonard real books... not in the Sher books either... at least the Shur books show their source for chord symbols... Wow and I wondered why young players mixed their tensions ... Best Reg

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey M-ster... I just went through a few new fake books, almost every tune that uses #5 is really implying b13... I do have one of the original Real Books... chord symbols are much more accurate...

Well, I'm a bit of a dinosaur ... Pre-Real Book is the "earlier" stuff, to me. Real Book started the "more informed" charts and chord symbols. I'll admit to having little experience with post-Real Book!

[Reg]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Well, I'm a bit of a dinosaur ... Pre-Real Book is the "earlier" stuff, to me. Real Book started the "more informed" charts and chord symbols. I'll admit to having little experience with post-Real Book!

I like that dinosaur thing... yea I remember the old fake books, I still have some, two to three tunes to a page... mainly a melody with very few changes... or even worse, how many gigs did you play when the front man would call the tune and put two fingers up or down to let everyone know the key... it did work... and the $ was not much worse than a lot of the working gigs nowadays... Reg

[cosmic gumbo]

I try to grasp the intended context, but if I'm doing bass lines on the tuba, generally a 7+5 is asking me to use a sharped 5th, while a b13 is asking for a natural 5. Same applied logic with 7+11 and 7b5.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I try to grasp the intended context, but if I'm doing bass lines on the tuba, generally a 7+5 is asking me to use a sharped 5th, while a b13 is asking for a natural 5. Same applied logic with 7+11 and 7b5.

What are the rest of the notes you hear/lpay to complete the arpeggio... or scale... or notes you would use to create melodic line, from that chord spelling. Or do you play what your told to play... sort of how my wife would like me to play...Reg

[cosmic gumbo]

Originally Posted by Reg

What are the rest of the notes you hear/lpay to complete the arpeggio... or scale... or notes you would use to create melodic line, from that chord spelling. Or do you play what your told to play... sort of how my wife would like me to play...Reg

?? I was simply implying that if someone threw me a lead sheet to have me do a bass part, the way the chord was written would help me choose which 5th to play, unless the context presented something different that was obvious. I look at tuba and guitar as differnt roles...except at solo time!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I look at tuba and guitar as differnt roles...except at solo time!

I've heard tuba soloists blowing octaves and other chords by humming at the same time, and overtones. Pretty funky!

[ksjazzguitar]

I think Reg and Cosmic and Reg are both right from their own perspectives. Cosmic is right that that is what those symbols should mean and Reg is right that they get interchanged so freely that to be 100% sure you need to look at the musical context and use your ear.

I may regret reinjecting myself here, but we'll see.

Peace,
Kevin

[Reg]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

?? I was simply implying that if someone threw me a lead sheet to have me do a bass part, the way the chord was written would help me choose which 5th to play, unless the context presented something different that was obvious. I look at tuba and guitar as differnt roles...except at solo time!

Hey Cosmic... I agree the way the chord is written should help you choose which 5th to play... that part about context gets tricky... whats obvious and what isn't. Sometimes when written as #5, as in almost all the fake books from mid-90's on, when chord symbol says #5, it really means b13 and sometimes there is a natural 5 also.... but who cares... most of the time I play natural, flat and sharp...at least I'll get one right... Reg

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Badge

Fellow travellers, Is a dom7 flat 13 chord the same as a dom7 sharp 5 enharmonically? If so, why are there 2 descriptions? Thanks!

George Carlin once asked a similar question about flamable, inflamable and non inflamable.

I guess for the same reason there is a key of Db AND C#.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

George Carlin once asked a similar question about flamable, inflamable and non inflamable.

I guess for the same reason there is a key of Db AND C#.

Oh yea