Guitar voicings that don't get in the way of the bassist?

FattMusiek · #1 01-21-2011, 02:21 PM

Hey everyone...

So I play every now and then Friday nights at a local jazz spot. Many of the musicians are older, seasoned jazz pros, and I'm a munchkin trying to stay afloat on any given song. One of the best younger players around here asked to use my guitar and amp, as he has in the past, to play a few tunes. Of course I did, especially because we at one point studied under the same teacher, and because I want to show my respect to people who can teach me things.

So while he was playing I noticed he mostly played voicings that would not go beyond the D string (no A or low E string). I was wondering if someone here could point me in the direction of what those voicings were. I'm interested in the most practical and best sounding ones...who wouldn't be?

He's obviously a great player and I have a long, long way to go before I'm anywhere near that good. He was playing these voicings in a downward motion down the fretboard. Perhaps like this:

YouTube - joe pass guitar lesson part 2

(this video deals with a lot of substitutes, but are not necessarily D string oriented) Joe Pass starts talking about these chromatic movements around 5 minutes in.

Stackabones · #2 01-21-2011, 02:49 PM

Stick to small two- and three-note voicings that almost always avoid the root. This'll help you when playing with pianists, too. Often you can simplify most voicings down to 7ths ... so E13, just play E7; Emaj9 play Emaj7 etc.

In general, hit the upper extentions (9, 11, 13) when no pianist is around. Watch out for b5 in chords: Em7b5, C7b5, etc.

Silence · #3 01-21-2011, 02:52 PM

I think these three books would definitely help you:

Amazon.com: Jazz Guitar Voicings - Vol.1: The Drop 2 Book (9781883217648): Randy Vincent: Books

Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Three-Note Voicings and Beyond

Amazon.com: Jazz Guitar Comping (9780970057648): Andrew Green: Books

And just my 2 cents:

If you have an instrumentalist covering a lower register, one way to complement that timbre is to play voicings on the top 3 or 4 strings first and foremost because playing lower may muddy things up overall, but those voicings your friend were using also add more distinguishable color to the progression.

There is a great lesson here called "Wes Montgomery Style Chord Solos" or something like that. That lesson will give you some voicings to play around with.

JonnyPac · #4 01-21-2011, 03:37 PM

I use the low strings very little nowadays... I do not strictly play "rootless" though by any means. The root is just buried in the mix. I modeled my comping off of the left hand of 60's jazz piano players. I demo my favorites on my lesson thread here...

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/showc...ar-lesson.html

I look for voicings that I feel are "elegant" in their structures and expand the harmony in a modal way whenever possible (fourths, so what, and upper structures). I never think of "drop 2" type things really. If dig you my vibe, please feel free to ask questions. Good luck!

ksjazzguitar · #5 01-21-2011, 04:09 PM

Yeah, I think that you can have some roots in there, but they definitely usually shouldn't be the bottom note. (Another reason why I tend to build my chords from the top note down.) The problem is that if you have to many voicings with the roots and the bottom, and the bass player keeps hitting the root on beat 1, then you're going to end up with a lot of parallel octaves and it will get heavy after a while.

As others have suggested, I usually try to just stay at least an octave above the bass and keep the voicings small. And less is more - both in terms of notes in the voicing and the amount of playing (if you're getting in the way, play less is one solution.) Pianos can get away with larger voicings with more playing since it is a different timbre, IMHO. And they have a much wider range. Guitar comping is more about space and rhythm and small voicings that connect together, IMHO.

Peace,
Kevin

Stackabones · #6 01-21-2011, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

I do not strictly play "rootless" though by any means. The root is just buried in the mix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Yeah, I think that you can have some roots in there, but they definitely usually shouldn't be the bottom note.

That's a good point.

FattMusiek · #7 01-21-2011, 04:52 PM

I am unable to purchase much of anything these days (I am currently trying to find a friend to cut my damn mullet hair), so I won't be able to buy any books...

JonnyPac · #8 01-21-2011, 04:56 PM

A lot of my book's pages are posted here, including some cool chord charts...

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...ar-book-2.html Free shiz!

FattMusiek · #9 01-21-2011, 05:50 PM

The Wes Style chord solos lesson has been really helpful so far. I'm taking notes...

PaulD · #10 01-21-2011, 06:25 PM

I've attached a pdf with some voicings I like to use made up of the 3rd, 7th and 9th. Sid Jacobs has a great video about these on Mike's Master Classes website. On the fretboard diagram, the dots show where the root is just as a reference, but you don't play them.

Paul

pierre richard · #11 01-21-2011, 09:28 PM

check out George Van Eps books.....monster books on the concept...

as stated above...use upper voicings of the chords...leave the root to the bass..

getting the right sound and smoothness takes time for this aspect of playing...just start out with a few simple tunes and progress accordingly..

as always...time on the instrument..pierre

wizard3739 · #12 01-21-2011, 10:28 PM

Hey PaulD, the chord concept you outlined is the material I am studying now a la Ed Bickert sounds. I really like the voicings he uses in his music. He makes it sound so relaxed, natural and cool.

wiz

randalljazz · #13 01-22-2011, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

I am unable to purchase much of anything these days (I am currently trying to find a friend to cut my damn mullet hair), so I won't be able to buy any books...

tiotally free:

II-V-I Tutor: Major II-V-I Rootless Drop 2 Voicings On Strings 4 3 2 1

wizard3739 · #14 01-22-2011, 10:16 AM

Hey Randalljazz: The website you linked is an excellent source of jazz guitar info!

Jeff Brent - Professional Guitar Teacher: FREE! Guitar Study Materials

IMHO, this site has a lot of intersting and usefull jazz guitar concepts.

wiz

docbop · #15 01-22-2011, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard3739

Hey Randalljazz: The website you linked is an excellent source of jazz guitar info!

Jeff Brent - Professional Guitar Teacher: FREE! Guitar Study Materials

IMHO, this site has a lot of intersting and usefull jazz guitar concepts.

wiz

Jeff Brent is an excellent musician and posts all the time over at allaboutJazz.com forums. He knows a lot about guitar, but piano appears to be his main instrument.

JonnyPac · #16 01-22-2011, 12:33 PM

I dig Jeff Brent's site too. Cool info. His guitar stuff is pretty good. I like that he thinks bigger than one instrument in this approach. His breakdown of LCC got me interested last year.

gersdal · #17 01-22-2011, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbop

Jeff Brent is an excellent musician and posts all the time over at allaboutJazz.com forums. He knows a lot about guitar, but piano appears to be his main instrument.

The referred voicing charts are written by Jeff and me, and both Jeff and I have ensured that the voicings are guitar friendly also. My main instrument is guitar. Randalljazz has also been involved in the process of checking these. Hence, there should IMHO not be any reason for any fear that these are not suitable for guitar

http://guitar-lessons-riverside-ca.c...2010080 1.pdf
http://guitar-lessons-riverside-ca.c...0070 4b-1.pdf

FattMusiek · #18 02-12-2011, 07:13 PM

Lotsssss and lots of good posts in here people! Thanks a lot...

ubiguitar · #19 02-16-2011, 06:36 AM

You can check this one: Triads over Bass: Slash Chords and Upper Structures.
I think this is the simplest way to introduce upper structures: all you have to do is missing out root from positions presented and you have what you need with extension analysis.

regards

Ale

markerhodes · #20 02-16-2011, 07:23 AM

Lot of great advice here. I was unfamiliar with Jeff Brent's site---now I've bookmarked it. Those 3-7-9 voicings are hip.

Reg · #21 02-16-2011, 10:52 AM

All great directions... I play... that's what I do, I think I gets lots of calls because of my playing, not my looks... I look at comping from the top down. My first concern is my lead line. The next note I try and make sound like a melody is my bottom note. I fill in what I can grab between the two. I don't worry about 3rds and 7ths etc... my line more than implies the harmony. Maybe if I'm laying down one chord in a ballad... hell, I never just lay down one chord...
I consider my self a pretty straight player but the last thing I want to sound like is voice-leading exercise ... really. For most standards.. you (and the audience) can't help hearing the changes... pretty hard to screw it up. If you're not aware of chord spelling and what harmonies are implied... OK get it together, it's not that complicated... There are many ways to analyze a I, VI, II, V or most of all the other standard chord progressions... but they still sound the way they do. You can play the same set of voicing on a I, VI, II, V and have a ton of different sounds, lead-lines, bass motion etc... you don't have to play every note fingered. Rather that look for a voicing that's cool or hip... try and hear something... a groove melody, a common tone on top or bottom, some line with motion up or down, a sequence, a rhythmic pattern that changes with the harmony anything... just start. The voicings will take care of them self's, most players have more than enough to work with... and remember it's the bass players job not to get in your way... Pick a couple tunes... let's play through them for examples...Reg

Reg · #22 02-17-2011, 10:43 AM

Hey Paul... dig your voicings,(and your playing)... where or what settings do you use them, guitar cluster style of voicings are only a few notes but are extremely heavy... I tend to have tough time using except when I play line cliches or solo, duo and trio settings... and even then they create a lot of tension, with use of intervals rather than harmonically... I find that they change the harmonic rhythm of standards... I do dig sound, I personally just have trouble using. I know Randy Vincent, he's a great player and he get away with using but he has his own sound... not what I think of as standard... You should post samples of comping over standards and maybe some more contemporary tunes... I'll post some simple older style of comping on tunes... This is a pretty good discussion for guitarist... working voicings for different styles and settings of jazz... Reg