Some Favorite Unaltered Dominant 4-string Voicings

[JonnyPac]

Unaltered Ab Mixolydian Voicings

These sound nice to me. They are upper partials that outline V chords from Mixolydian. They run all the way up the neck in a pretty way. They can be transposed/moved to fit any key. Let me know if you like them as much as I do.





-1--4--6--6--8--11-13--(13)-------------
-1--4--6--6--9--11-13--(13)-------------
-3--3--5--8--8--10-11--(15)-------------
-4--4--4--10-8--10-13--(16)-------------
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------



EDIT: These are classics that Bill Evans, McCoy Tyner, and Herbie Hancock used. If you can't figure out how to use them in a typical guitarist way, please give them another chance. Sit down with a pianist (or three) if need be. Enjoy.

[JakeAcci]

Not to rain on anything, but the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th ones don't sound 'dominant' to me. That would be okay if they voice lead to each other...

To harmonize the mixo, how about this? Some of them are sus chords. This was a good exercise and interesting concept...


2-4-6-8-9--11-13-14---------------------
1-2-6-7-9--11-11-13----------------------
3-3-5-6-11-11-11-15----------------------
1-4-4-6-8--13-11-13---------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

[JonnyPac]

Partials in sequence outline the dominant quality. These are meant to me played somewhat together over a measure or two. Stand-alone voicings should contain the definitive chord tones, yes, but not these IMHO.

The first one is my fav stand-alone b7 9 3 13.

Thanks for sharing too.

[JakeAcci]

I'm sorry, but I don't hear the voice leading in your example. If you were to play them as quarter notes or half notes the voicings don't seem to connect. Maybe there's a rhythm you had in mind that makes the sequence pop.

I'm trying to play them in some different rhythms while singing a low Ab, but I don't hear the connection. I don't hear any melody lines or solid counter lines or anything.

However, the concept/exercise is interesting - travel up the neck trying to retain dominant flavor without using any notes outside of mixolydian. I like the idea of some deliberate alternation of a sus sound and a voicing with both the 3 and the b7. In some spots, alternating inversions of Ebm7 (or Gbmaj7) and Cm7b5 work well to my ears.

Not trying to dig or be negative, but you did open a discussion with some voicings!

[bako]

I don't know about favorites, here's a descending scale harmonization I threw together.
Sorry for the big stretches, there is danger in having too much time to think.

Chord #5 is Dm9 (Fma7)
Chord #7 has the 3, 4, b7, 9 (G9add4 ???)
Chord #10 is Cma7/6

1---x x 15 14 12 15
2---x x 9 12 10 13
3---x x 12 10 8 12
4---x x 9 9 6 10
5---x x 7 9 6 8
6---x x 3 4 5 7
7---x x 9 5 6 5
8---x x 7 4 6 3
9---x x 3 4 5 1
10--3 3 2 2 0 0

[JakeAcci]

Dig it! Thank you. I like the zig zag pattern of some of the voices.

Is there a typo in #6? Sounds fine but it's the only voicing with an octave in it.

[bako]

No typo, the octave was intentional.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Dig it! Thank you. I like the zig zag pattern of some of the voices.

Is there a typo in #6? Sounds fine but it's the only voicing with an octave in it.

Joe Pass (and others, I'm sure) plays that voicing for a 13th chord with it's 3rd in the melody.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

I guess I was pretty frickin' vague!! I was not trying to voice lead, or travel up the neck with any particular melodic line. I have a unique way of comping that does not make sense without rhythmic notation. I'll see if I can doctor up a better example. I'm convinced you'll appreciate in more if I do. Back in a flash!

But then I'd have to ask, what would be the purpose of a group of voicings that are to be played in sequence that do not voice lead well and do not have strong melodic content?

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by bako

No typo, the octave was intentional.

Originally Posted by M-ster

Joe Pass (and others, I'm sure) plays that voicing for a 13th chord with it's 3rd in the melody.

Cool guys, thanks.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

But then I'd have to ask, what would be the purpose of a group of voicings that are to be played in sequence that do not voice lead well and do not have strong melodic content?

Just for modal washes behind solos.

[fep]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

But then I'd have to ask, what would be the purpose of a group of voicings that are to be played in sequence that do not voice lead well and do not have strong melodic content?

Jake,

Don Mock demonstrated a similar idea (different voicings though), and here's an example how you'd use them - starting at about 3:00 on this video:

YouTube Video

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by fep

Jake,

Don Mock demonstrated a similar idea (different voicings though), and here's an example how you'd use them - starting at about 3:00 on this video:

But his beautiful playing was the opposite of my inquiry - great voice leading, very, very strong melodic content. The different voicings were great voicings that connected well.

This video was not an answer to my question of where is the place for a group of chords in sequence that do not voice lead well and do not contain a strong melody.

[keith]

Nice thread

It really shows how people are thinking of the voicings they are using.

I follow what you are doing JonnyPac and like it. No they're not all dominant but I hear their association and understand how you're using them in comping ( although in this thread the more you try to explain it, the muddier it's getting! :-) )

Keep posting. Good stuff!

[JonnyPac]

Sorry guys, I'm bailin' out on this thread. I was just throwing out some very simple voicing ideas. I don't feel like debating everything I post down to the painful details.

The Don Mock stuff is from another approach altogether. The voicings I posted are, in fact, left hand piano voicings used by Bill Evans, McCoy Tyner, and Herbie Hancock. You can argue with them if you don't think they are valid.

I'm loosing steam with this forum. Every time I get excited about some idea I am tinkering with and post, I get dog-piled. I'm about done.

Enjoy yourselves.

[JonnyPac]

Sorry to blow up. Here's my other explanation...

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

(Those) who like to go round and round with me on theory: I am realizing a few things here...

1. I do in fact think of music theory in a non-jazz/non-classical-exclusive way. It's home grown, I guess. It "works" well and makes sense. Russell's theory of LCC seems to work in place of traditional models; so does mine (not that mine is all that complicated).

2. Perhaps because I have compiled a book with the materials I find immediately useful for creating spontaneous modal counterpoint in contemporary music, jazz or otherwise, it makes me a target. I could come off as threatening, I suppose. Especially since I am an unknown guitarist. I recommend that you all write books if you feel so strongly about certain topics. Perhaps you would feel less inclined to challenge my work. I have sold a modest 45 copies since I printed it on Dec 1st 2010. I have had great feedback on it so far.

3. I am a music enthusiast. Being constantly optimistic about anything takes a lot of energy and positive reinforcement. Being dog-piled by endless subjective debates does not make me feel good. If this forum was more geared towards people sharing and supporting one anthers creativity and ideas, I think I'd like it a lot more. WE (you me and the others here) jazz guitarists, are generally a under-appreciated minority compared to the current pop stars. We are each concerned with our art, not just shitting out a #1 single and getting $$$. We need to respect and admire each other for the brave efforts we make to play this style.

4. Forums are like cars. People get in their cars and act (drive) much more aggressively and self-righteously than they usually to in person. The anonymous user (nothing more than an avatar design and a blurb username) is more prone to be unfriendly then, say, your facebook friends. For the most part the users here are faceless, ageless, and always have the last option to reinvent themselves as needed. Trolls are the exrteme, not that I have spotted any here.

I think we should save the "lessons" for those who are asking for help. Some of my treads are looking for ideas and opinions, while others are just me sharing something fun. If I post something to study or play around with, please don't thrash it completely.

Sorry, I'm just getting bogged down by all of the unnecessary debates over tiny details. My 2011 resolution for this place is to enjoy this forum, or walk. Every time I get an email notification, I feel a wave anxiety because I know someone is being critical and fussy about my lat post. No fun!!!

That said, thanks to the of you who have been kind and supportive with your posts. I appreciate you. Happy 2011: have a good time... all the time.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

But his beautiful playing was the opposite of my inquiry - great voice leading, very, very strong melodic content. The different voicings were great voicings that connected well.

This video was not an answer to my question of where is the place for a group of chords in sequence that do not voice lead well and do not contain a strong melody.

Don's got chops no doubt. Ironically, I learned those exact changes over a decade ago. I don't play trad jazz at this point, and wouldn't be caught dead playing those now. But that's just me. I prefer less-obvious impressionistic voicings that do not add any passing chords (ei dim7's etc). Those in the video sound like jazz guitar, yes, but jazz guitar is not all that can be played by a jazz guitarist, if you catch my drift.

Again, I didn't post the original thread to debate. I posted some voicings that I like and use every day. This place is really getting to me.

Peace.

[JakeAcci]

Johnny I read your point by point post in the two threads.

I'm new here but have been around forums for quite a while.

If you post something, you can't just expect positive encouragement. That's really, really foolish. People are going to speak their minds about the content of your post and hopefully do it in a respectful way. If I've failed at that in this thread, I apologize.

I think my above point is even more applicable to someone who is promoting educational materials. If a lot of people disagree with your perspectives about the material you are teaching, isn't that something you want to know about? Don't you want to learn from those corrections? You might not change the content and you might not even agree with the objections, but knowing how that content is perceived in a more world-wide sense can't be anything but helpful in the long run. No one does anybody any favors with insincere "atta-boys."

Keep in mind that the whole point of a forum (at least as I see it) is that people share information and opinions and everybody wins by either learning something new, or being forced to express themselves very clearly.

Obviously no one is going to get 100% support for what they do at all times. If you're presenting your ideas to a large group of jazz guitarists and getting negative feedback, that may say something about the group, but it's also a direct reflection of how your ideas are being perceived. As a businessman and author I'd be surprised if you wouldn't be eager to get that feedback.

[JonnyPac]

I have only sold one book to a member here, so far no feedback from him. To those who actually take the time to read it, like the 30 locals who bought it at my store, the feedback is 100% positive. They are learning from it, and it is helping them with their process. Win!

To have a forum where, dudes just pop in a give you the stern "oh yeah, prove it". that is not worth my time whatsoever. I am not good a typing and I am no scholar for heavy debate. I also don't like the fact that many threads start off innocently with a noob sharing or asking and it ends with the forum vets pounding one another off-topic because of a misuse of a term, etc.

I've gotten no real gain from being here. I came hoping to share and get inspired by other artists. To connect with other people who love what I love. Not this petty drama. The devils advocate is overrated.

[JakeAcci]

I think you're being a little irrational here, and I'd encourage you to stay. I get sensitive too sometimes, for sure, and I'm not a very experienced performer. I'm just trying to learn.

And we all have to have a pretty thick skin if we really want to learn and grow - otherwise we'll shelter ourselves from the experiences that make us see ourselves, and where we're at, more clearly.

You start a post anywhere on the internet and you're going to get a discussion. I've been on forums that are just plain vicious, things seem pretty mellow and thoughtful around here.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

I have only sold one book to a member here, so far no feedback from him. To those who actually take the time to read it, like the 30 locals who bought it at my store, the feedback is 100% positive.

I meant feedback for the ideas you've presented in these threads, not to your book.

[Jazz_175]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Unaltered Ab Mixolydian Voicings

These sound nice to me. They are upper partials that outline V chords from Mixolydian. They run all the way up the neck in a pretty way. They can be transposed/moved to fit any key. Let me know if you like them as much as I do.





-1--4--6--6--8--11-13--(13)-------------
-1--4--6--6--9--11-13--(13)-------------
-3--3--5--8--8--10-11--(15)-------------
-4--4--4--10-8--10-13--(16)-------------
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------



EDIT: These are classics that Bill Evans, McCoy Tyner, and Herbie Hancock used. If you can't figure out how to use them in a typical guitarist way, please give them another chance. Sit down with a pianist (or three) if need be. Enjoy.

Old thread coming back.
Nice voicings: my question is: where did you get the info that these are voicings used by those great pianists:
1) Listening
2) books
3) someone else told you.

Just to know where this information comes from.
Thanks for sharing

[alwaysharp]

I like the voicings and dig the "impressionist voicings" approach while backing up a soloist. I think it can be really cool. I find myself doing similar stuff where you're more or less just adding some texture to the mix with an occassional resolution or cadence for punctuation. Does that make sense? Anyway, I like it. Take care guys.

[aniss1001]

I love these voicings

And I sincerely hope you'll stay on the forum Jonni. Your threads / posts are some of the most constructive on this forum.

Don't take it personally that people want to nitpick everything here. If you don't fell like debating just don't. Say you don't have time or something. Don't worry about it...

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Unaltered Ab Mixolydian Voicings


-1--4--6--6--8--11-13--(13)-------------
-1--4--6--6--9--11-13--(13)-------------
-3--3--5--8--8--10-11--(15)-------------
-4--4--4--10-8--10-13--(16)-------------
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------

Some input on the 4th voicing: Put the Gb underneath to regain its dom7 sound. Lower the Eb to D to get the lydian b7 (i.e. 7#11) voicing.

Yes, they're no longer just 4 note voicings. I'm just sharing. Pretty sure JP already has this in his book somewhere.

--------6--------6--------
--------6--------6--------
--------8--------7--------
-------10-------10--------
--------9--------9--------
--------------------------

[alwaysharp]

Agreed. Especially when there's a bass player you're gonna have context for these voicings to help imply it's function. I like using voicings that are slightly ambiguous like fourth voicings or more key oriented than as opposed to a specific function. Then, like I said, punctuate it with a fa-mi or fa-me somewhere in there. Or maybe not even a strict resolution in that sense but just a melody note on top from time to time to help inform where we're at. Which we should all know anyway. But I'm in no way a pro so take all that for whatever it's worth.

[JonnyPac]

Wow- Old scary thread were Jake and I first met...

(No moderators were here for the first 6+ months I was posting, and it was a nightmare every day).

I can make a video of these in play at some point. Stay tuned. The live sound is worth a thousand words and pictures.

Here are the shapes I pulled from:
Jazz Piano Style Guitar Voicings in Music Theory, Guitar Lessons and Song Writing Tools Forum

I did research actual jazz piano voicings from the greats. Bill Evans, Herbie, McCoy Tyner, Andrew Hill and many more. They are also in The Jazz Piano Book.

Again, these are upper-partials. Essential things are missing in each, but the Gestalt does not suffer. And, yes, a bassist is required.

Thanks for the kind words too. I'm glad this place has become nicer (and for the record Jake and I have an understanding nowadays).

[wizard3739]

Hey JonnyPac, there are many of us here who really appreciate the posts you have been putting up. I really enjoy reviewing your material and often am reminded of some concept I should keep in mind but have not used very much. In particular, IMHO, your melodic minor inputs are really good and very helpful. Thank you for sharing with us.

wiz

[JonnyPac]

Thanks, wiz! Glad to help. Always!

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Unaltered Ab Mixolydian Voicings

These sound nice to me. They are upper partials that outline V chords from Mixolydian. They run all the way up the neck in a pretty way. They can be transposed/moved to fit any key. Let me know if you like them as much as I do.





-1--4--6--6--8--11-13--(13)-------------
-1--4--6--6--9--11-13--(13)-------------
-3--3--5--8--8--10-11--(15)-------------
-4--4--4--10-8--10-13--(16)-------------
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------



EDIT: These are classics that Bill Evans, McCoy Tyner, and Herbie Hancock used. If you can't figure out how to use them in a typical guitarist way, please give them another chance. Sit down with a pianist (or three) if need be. Enjoy.

Good stuff. Thanks.

Allthough Evans was known for rootless voicings, I don't think he was pedantic about it, especially if the root was anywhere but the lowest note.