The more complex chord progressions I am likely to encounter with standards?

[FattMusiek]

I was wondering...what are some of the more embellished and complex chord progressions I might encounter when playing standards? I want to be prepared to comp chords to any standard. This will take years of practice of course.

Currently, I know a little bit about basic blues progressions, some consistent voicings for bebop type tunes (four to the bar). However, when I try and play with seasoned players, I'm quickly left in their wake. I want to be able to comp without looking at a lead sheet. Every time I've played out on Friday night at the local jazz night (which is a great learning experience), I can never see the damn lead sheet because I'm back in the corner of the room.

I don't even know Autumn Leaves by memory...I should rectify that first probably. It doesn't hurt to know what's around the corner though I think.

First, I have to have a really solid understanding of blues forms. 12 bar blues is fairly straight-forward, though one can embellish it by using related credentials. I'm interested in knowing why when other people play a blues form, it sounds much more interesting than when I do, so I can work on it. I know there is also the 16 bar blues form. What other variations are there?

I know about the existence of the Coltrane changes, but I still don't understand what is happening exactly. "Reharmonization," but how?

So feel free to post anything you might deem to be helpful for a beginner, more or less. I've been playing music for maybe 11 years at this point, but during the last year I've found that I know jack compared to the people I want to hang with musically. I'm not a total dummy though, so go for it.

[FattMusiek]

I just wrote down Gershwin's I Got Rhythm changes...Just copying it by hand took like 8 minutes...!

found it here: Realbook Jazz Charts - I Got Rhythm*Chord Chart*

Not to distract from the main questions of the thread, but I'd like to know what this symbol means: I6/V Is it a major 6th chord OF the V?

[Stackabones]

I wouldn't worry about the complex progessions till you get the basic ones down. The link you provided didn't work for me, so I can't comment on those Rhythm changes -- but note that there are many ways to play I Got Rhythm and players mix and match various versions all the time. I wouldn't really worry about the Coltrane changes till you get some better know standards down cold (Autumn Leaves, I Got Rhythm, etc).

If you can't see the lead sheet, I'd suggest finding out how to get a copy of the lead sheet. Perhaps they are using the Real Book? Get one of those (or whatever they are using at the jam) and start woodshedding.

Another blues form is the 8-bar blues, and it's found in Key To The Highway, which I haven't heard at too many jazz jams (though it would be cool to hear it). Go to a blues jam and you'll probably hear it! 16-bar blues pops up in Watermelon Man, which is almost always played in F -- though I like it in E on guitar.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

I was wondering...what are some of the more embellished and complex chord progressions I might encounter when playing standards?

Well, part of this will depend on what you define as "standards." I tend to have a conservative definition, so I would say that most of the chord progressions are pretty straightforward with the occasional oddball chord thrown in. I would recommend just doing a lot of comping. Get a fake book or check out some online resource like Ralph Patt's site:

Index

Just comp. Go ahead and comp along with recordings. Listen to good compers and try to imitate their texture.

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

I can never see the damn lead sheet because I'm back in the corner of the room.

Because you are too far away or because it is too dark? Both of those are fixable - get your own book and stand or get a stand light.

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

I don't even know Autumn Leaves by memory...I should rectify that first probably. It doesn't hurt to know what's around the corner though I think.

Yeah, learn one tune at a time (especially in the beginning.) Comp along with the changes in front of you and the metronome clicking on beats 2 and 4. When that gets comfortable, look away and see if you can still do it. Then put the guitar down and see if you can "hear" your way through the chord changes. Do the same while listening to a recording of it. See if you can write them down. Comp along with a recording. Try and comp while you are singing the melody or a solo to yourself. As you get better, you may even be able to get little melodic lines in your comping.

Especially in the beginning, don't move on until you are ready. Then, as you move onto your next tune, be sure to keep practicing the old tune. Just make a list of 10 tunes you think that you should know and work through them one by one.

It will take a while, but it does get easier. Each tune will be a little easier than the last. And eventually you will begin to hear the progressions and just be able to "hear" your way through many standards.

I used to go to jam sessions and any tune that was called that I didn't know, I put that on my list.

It is nice to be able to play without a book, but it really depends. If I'm playing with my bass player, then I know that we can do 5-6 hours of stuff without a book. If I'm sitting in with some guys with whom I don't normally play, then I'm bringing my fake book. I'd rather be playing with a guy reading out of a book than to play with all the yahoos that think they know the changes but are really screwing them up.

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

I know about the existence of the Coltrane changes, but I still don't understand what is happening exactly. "Reharmonization," but how?

That is a much more advanced topic. At your level I would focus more on simple subs, like tri-tone and diatonic subs.

But if you insist, here is a good explanation of Coltrane reharminization:

Coltrane changes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They call it a "substitution" but to me it is a "reharmonization" since it so drastically changes the harmonic function - but that is semantics. But like I said, this is not a topic that comes up much at your level. Usually if you encounter something with Coltrane changes, it will be written out that way, like "Giant Steps" or "Countdown" or some reharm I guy in the band wrote out. I don't think I've ever been on a gig and someone just said, "Hey, let's play 'Just Friends' with Coltrane changes" and just expected everyone to magically do it. I have heard players superimpose Coltrane changes over the top of a ii-V-I here and there, and it's nice if you can catch it with them. But those are pretty advanced players.

Peace,
Kevin

[FattMusiek]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the advice. I just want to be one of those guys who can "play." I tend to think "I'm pretty good" and then I get my ass handed to me in a number of ways. So I hit the drawing board again, studying musical phenomena and trying to understand what's happening.

I cannot yet reliably play melodic lines over changes in "standards" (I use the term loosely). I have a bunch of little nuggets of knowledge, but I think that some "aha!" moments must be had to really make music, and play confidently.

[Jazzaluk]

Complexity is really just an illusion that comes from combining and layering simple concepts. My advise is to look for simplicity in the chord progressions and then gradually apply substitutions and reharm concepts as you learn them.

Once you learn the basic progression of a tune, the next question is "how can I make it sound more interest?". That's when the fun begins.

[Reg]

Get copies of "The New Real Book"s, there are three, plus a bunch of other jazz publications. In each book there are lists of tunes, one group is called "Choice Standards", try and learn those tunes to start with... If you want some other tougher standards, try Pensativa by Clare Fischer, Pinocchio by Shorter, Tones for Jones Bones or Bud Powell by Chick, Along Came Betty by B Golson, Clockwise by Cedar Walton, Punjab, Mo'Joe or any of Joe Henderson's more difficult tunes... these are all standards I play at gigs all the time. If you want some more contemporary Jazz standards, let me know, there are hundreds to choose from... As far as jazz/blues you need to be able feel/play any form or number of bars. Any jazz standard can become a jazz/blues... best Reg

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

Not to distract from the main questions of the thread, but I'd like to know what this symbol means: I6/V Is it a major 6th chord OF the V?

I6/V is the tonic 6th chord with it's 5th in the bass. I.e., the symbol indicates an inversion, not an analysis.

[jazzninja]

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

I just wrote down Gershwin's I Got Rhythm changes...Just copying it by hand took like 8 minutes...!

found it here: Realbook Jazz Charts - I Got Rhythm*Chord Chart*

Not to distract from the main questions of the thread, but I'd like to know what this symbol means: I6/V Is it a major 6th chord OF the V?

No it means over the 5. So in C it would be:
C6/G
So C6 with G as a bass note.

[jazzninja]

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

I was wondering...what are some of the more embellished and complex chord progressions I might encounter when playing standards? I want to be prepared to comp chords to any standard. This will take years of practice of course.

Currently, I know a little bit about basic blues progressions, some consistent voicings for bebop type tunes (four to the bar). However, when I try and play with seasoned players, I'm quickly left in their wake. I want to be able to comp without looking at a lead sheet. Every time I've played out on Friday night at the local jazz night (which is a great learning experience), I can never see the damn lead sheet because I'm back in the corner of the room.

I don't even know Autumn Leaves by memory...I should rectify that first probably. It doesn't hurt to know what's around the corner though I think.

First, I have to have a really solid understanding of blues forms. 12 bar blues is fairly straight-forward, though one can embellish it by using related credentials. I'm interested in knowing why when other people play a blues form, it sounds much more interesting than when I do, so I can work on it. I know there is also the 16 bar blues form. What other variations are there?

I know about the existence of the Coltrane changes, but I still don't understand what is happening exactly. "Reharmonization," but how?

So feel free to post anything you might deem to be helpful for a beginner, more or less. I've been playing music for maybe 11 years at this point, but during the last year I've found that I know jack compared to the people I want to hang with musically. I'm not a total dummy though, so go for it.

Well Giant Steps is about the most complex thing I've come across but at jams I've never faced anything more complicated than "All the things you are" and "Stella by starlight".
The only way I can memorise progressions is to play them over and over by gigging them. Very, very few people know all the changes to everything that gets called. Best thing to do is to get the real books, or the ireal book app and have them to hand.
As far as reharmonisation goes, thats a very big subject, that I won't even attempt here, sorry!