Voice leading, drop chords with tension

Luan · #1 06-14-2010, 07:04 PM

I wanted to ask some questions:
How to systematically learn new voicings?
I know all the drop 2 and drop 3 voicings for Maj7, -7, 7, -7(b5) and °7. Now I'm learning the drop 2 voicings for maj7(b5) (lydian), I like the sound of those.
Is a good idea to learn the drop voicings with a tension? I think it is, but i'm still wondering what is the best way to practice a good voice leading.
Also, what exactly are spread voicings? I don't see the difference of those and drop chords with a tension, sometimes.

And how do you guys learn new things in comping?

Thanks a lot!

fep · #2 06-14-2010, 08:17 PM

Luan,

Have you tried taking a voicing and while staying on the same set of strings move each chord tone up to the next chord tone of that chord. It yields some interesting voicings (and sometimes really difficult to play voicings depending on how big your hands are).

For example start with this Fmaj7:

||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-7-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-R-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Then while staying on the same strings move the root (F) up to the 3rd (A) on the 4th string, the 5th up to the 7th on the 3rd string the 7th up to the root on the 2nd string and the 3rd up to the 5th on the 1st string. Get it?

You get another Fmaj7:

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-7-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Do it again and get another Fmaj7:

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-7-|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-5-|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

There's a 4th one if you do it one more time.

You can try this starting with any voicing you like and see what you come up with. It's also a good excercise in the goal of mastering the geography of the fretboard.

Luan · #3 06-14-2010, 08:19 PM

Yeah, I did that with the drop chords, like in the example you use it's a drop2 voicing in the first set of strings.

voelker · #4 06-15-2010, 12:17 AM

Sounds like you got everything under control then. I thought a spread chord was any chord that skipped a string, and a split chord is a spread chord with two notes on either side of the skipped string.

jeffstritt · #5 06-15-2010, 11:16 AM

Last night I was reading Scott Henderson's chord book, and the thing that really stuck out to me is that every chord you play is also three other chords depending on which note you consider the root. That might be something to consider.

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #6 06-15-2010, 11:21 AM

I have an all-purpose chord that functions as a major chord, a minor chord, a dominant chord or a altered dominant, depending on what bass you put against it.

Or to look at it another way, a 13th chord is theoretically 7 different notes -- the entire underlying scale! But then again, can a novel be reduced to a dictionary?

JohnW400 · #7 06-15-2010, 11:47 AM

You're missing Ma7#5 and mi/ma7 from the jazz melodic minor scale.

I'm assuming you learned all the inversions and in all 12 keys.

I think the next step for you is to learn the "piano" and "violin' voicings as I call them.

The piano voicing is the one that would match a two handed major 7th with 2 notes in each hand. 1 5 3 7 ( CGEB) . On the guitar these appear on strings 6 5 3 2 and 5 4 3 1.

The violin voicings (I see the dominant 7th in the Back Violin sonata book all the time hence the name) are 1375. (CEB G) and these appear on strings 6542 and 5431.

After you learn these sets, post agian and I'll tell you what's next.

There are a lot of other things you can do with these. I'll leave it a this for now.

Luan · #8 06-17-2010, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW400

You're missing Ma7#5 and mi/ma7 from the jazz melodic minor scale.

I'm assuming you learned all the inversions and in all 12 keys.

I think the next step for you is to learn the "piano" and "violin' voicings as I call them.

The piano voicing is the one that would match a two handed major 7th with 2 notes in each hand. 1 5 3 7 ( CGEB) . On the guitar these appear on strings 6 5 3 2 and 5 4 3 1.

The violin voicings (I see the dominant 7th in the Back Violin sonata book all the time hence the name) are 1375. (CEB G) and these appear on strings 6542 and 5431.

After you learn these sets, post agian and I'll tell you what's next.

There are a lot of other things you can do with these. I'll leave it a this for now.

Thanks a lot man!
How do you practice those voicings? and comping in general?
Thanks again

JohnW400 · #9 06-17-2010, 03:53 PM

@ Luan

You should practice all chords staring close to the nut and then go through the inversions up the neck and in all 12 keys.

Then you should , starting at then nut, play the harmonized scale. all inversions all keys.

The thing with always starting at the nut is that you're not always starting of in root position or using the major scale (.ex Starting off using a root position Fma& chord at the 1st fret but, playing in C will give you the scale harmonized from a Lydian perspective.)

The other thing is to do close positioned ii-V-I's , starting close to the nut, all keys , all inversions. The reason for this is to see and hear the voices change between the 3 chords (note the common tones, voice leading etc)

Here's an example on Dmi7 G7 Cma7. It starts closest to the nut. Notice how the voices move

Dmi7/A

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|

G7

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Cma7/ G

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

This is one of the things I look at with comping. How the chords flow into eachother

Some of the lower string chords are not the best choices for comping. The chords on 4321 are more often used but you should learn all od them.

Luan · #10 06-17-2010, 03:55 PM

Thanks a lot!

voelker · #11 06-22-2010, 01:40 AM

To expand on JohnW post, here is a diagram of how i practice this idea all the way down the fretboard. I add a dominant VI chord so its a VI,ii,V,I. (A7,D-7,G7,Cmaj7). Follow the blue chords down the page, through the progression, and then go back to the top and go down the next color.

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #12 06-22-2010, 08:19 AM

Nice diagram, Voelker! You can see it all in one glance.

Reg · #13 06-30-2010, 08:21 PM

All great advice and examples... Get it all down. Next be able to voice any chord, with any note on top, anywhere on neck, from proper scale. Also means you need to be able to make quick analysis of changes for what ever your playing. After you go through all the mundane part of learning your neck and voicings etc... all very valid and important skills, you throw it all away and start to play what you hear. I personally always hear lead lines and simply voice below, the voicing would reflect style, texture, volume etc... and most importantly... what I hear. I always hear the complete vertical structure for all my melodic lines, whether I play them or not. All your practice of different styles of voicings are to help you be able to hear... and then play what you hear. What may seem like the magic voicing of the moment... becomes... you probable get my direction. I'm trying to help you see or at least think of where your going to end up. It make the journey much more enjoyable... usually shorter also. Best Reg

Luan · #14 06-30-2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reg

All great advice and examples... Get it all down. Next be able to voice any chord, with any note on top, anywhere on neck, from proper scale. Also means you need to be able to make quick analysis of changes for what ever your playing. After you go through all the mundane part of learning your neck and voicings etc... all very valid and important skills, you throw it all away and start to play what you hear. I personally always hear lead lines and simply voice below, the voicing would reflect style, texture, volume etc... and most importantly... what I hear. I always hear the complete vertical structure for all my melodic lines, whether I play them or not. All your practice of different styles of voicings are to help you be able to hear... and then play what you hear. What may seem like the magic voicing of the moment... becomes... you probable get my direction. I'm trying to help you see or at least think of where your going to end up. It make the journey much more enjoyable... usually shorter also. Best Reg

Dude, that was a hell of a post. Thanks!!!!!!!

JohnW400 · #15 06-30-2010, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CC323

Isn't the piano voicing 'drop 2&4' and the violin voicing drop 2&3? Did you see my post in the Chords thread? Could you take a look at my approach and evaluate it if you have the time?

Sorry but I didn't learn them as 'drop' voicings. I guess you could call the violin voicing a drop 3. To me the better way is to remember string sets

6432
5321

These are the same 'stacking" I think the Berklee guys call these drop 4

4321
5342
6432

These are the same and I think the Berklee guys call this drop 2

The next are

6532
5421

followed by
6542
5431

Here are some others I cam up with after reading some of Pat Martinos I Ching stuff in one of his books

6521 F C E A
6321 G B D F# (I guess you would call this one drop 1)
6421 G F# D B (The inner voices on this one may change strings to facilitate the stretch, like playing the D on 3 rather than 2)

And dont forget what I call the Johnny Smith close voicings , plain old 1357 (GBDF# on 4321, 5432, 6543) Some of these are impossible but you should learn to 'see' them. Also you find very useful ones that start out with an almost impossible grip

ex. C E G B 8 7 5 4 on strings 6543 but make it Cma7b5 And you get a usable C E Gb B 8744

15 sets, 8 different voicings.

FYI, I don't remember them ever being called drop voicings when I went to school. I think that term came out of Berklee and just stuck.

As far as approach I don't want to evaluate what your doing because it may work for you and my way may not.

I have an anecdote about my first lesson with Harry Leahey when I was 17. I brought all kinds of books to the lesson. Joe Pass books, Mel Bay Improvisation by Vincent Bredice (?), all kinds of stuff. Harry asked me if I wanted to learn from these books or use his method. I opted for his method and I haven't had to buy another a method book since.

Look for a thesis about Harry on Scrybe. There is a TON of information in that thesis.

Reg · #16 07-01-2010, 12:51 AM

Just a note about Berklee... I learned drop voicings from arranging classes. Melody on top and voiced down in chord tones would be close position. Open position voicings would all others, Drop 2 would be when the second voice below the melody in close position is dropped 8vb. Dropped 3 would be 3rd voice and on... Dropped 2&4 would be 2nd and 4th voice down an octave etc. Spread voicings are open voicings with root on bottom. I don't remember exactly but same principle could be applied to guitar voicings very easily. I picked up my degree from Berklee in early 70's. Best Reg

JohnW400 · #17 07-01-2010, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reg

Just a note about Berklee... I learned drop voicings from arranging classes. Melody on top and voiced down in chord tones would be close position. Open position voicings would all others, Drop 2 would be when the second voice below the melody in close position is dropped 8vb. Dropped 3 would be 3rd voice and on... Dropped 2&4 would be 2nd and 4th voice down an octave etc. Spread voicings are open voicings with root on bottom. I don't remember exactly but same principle could be applied to guitar voicings very easily. I picked up my degree from Berklee in early 70's. Best Reg

I went to William Patterson in NJ in 76 and again in 79-80. No mention of drop chords in arranging class (2 semesters). Definately must be a Berklee thing.

A while back Bako put up an excellent post about how the notes stack up in each 'drop' voicing (1735, 1573, ect)

bako · #18 07-01-2010, 09:15 AM

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...html#post71440

Post #6 has the chart I believe John is referring to and my later post in the same thread has the drop names.

I find knowing all those inversions helpful in the least for seeing the fingerboard clearly.
Originally I came up with these through simple permutation and later from the internet and a Mick Goodrick book I heard all the drop chord terminology. A friend of mine took a single lesson with Ben Monder and he was given those 24 7th chord inversions and about 5 different string groups to learn 7th arpeggios. And for the 2nd lesson???

I also like just creating voicings on the fly using chordal and modal tones within a limited fingerboard geography.

Reg · #19 07-01-2010, 12:30 PM

Hey JohnW400... Yea I think it was a Berklee thing. I Went to UCB before Berklee and UCLA for masters after, late 70's, and was not mentioned either... a whole lot of information was not mentioned or even thought about that was standard at Berklee... but the degrees look good on paper... and were a lot less expensive... it's all history now and it appears the information is pretty accessible now... the dropped voicing technique was a great mechanical way to vary sound of lines etc... I tend to voice as bako mentioned... " creating voicings on the fly using chordal and modal tones within a limited fingerboard geography"... Hey bako... well put ...Best Reg

jsepguitar · #20 07-01-2010, 01:09 PM

I remembered seeing these videos on Youtube from Berklee on Drop 2 and Drop 3....

YouTube - Drop-2 Voicings - Guitar Lesson

YouTube - Drop-3 Voicings - Guitar Lesson

Reg · #21 07-01-2010, 04:58 PM

Thanks Jsepguitar... so as I was remembering... dropped voicings were an arranging technique used to develop guitar voicings... very cool...
Another small note... while was at Berklee Mick G. and Pat M. were around, I was lucky to meet both while they were in band lead by Gary B... it's pretty cool now when I think about, there were tons of great players going through that school... Best Reg

ubiguitar · #22 07-28-2010, 02:22 AM

If you have time, I can suggest to take a look at these books that present many samples of good voice leading and other interesting issues.

- Diatonic Voice Leading Techniques
- Guitar Chord Encyclopedia for Jazz Standards

Here you should find what you're looking for.

Hope you'll find useful.

Luan · #23 07-28-2010, 02:30 AM

Reg, did you talked with pat? he was 19 or 20 years old, right?

Some great info by everyone.
I know that berklee thing where you put the chord tones below the melody using drops or closed position voicings, and it's possible for guitar and piano also.
I'm studying the brett willmot book, it's a bit overwhelming but there are some great ideas, and my voice leading is becoming better, and actually I can now make chord melody arrangements where I put a chord below every note without repeating any chord!
Like in autumn leaves for example, using different drop voicings where you change the top note, and using subs (like playing a -7b5 chord on the third of the dominant chord) you have a lot of options where they can voice lead nicely.
Also, something the book shows clearly, is that one of the most important things is what the top note is doing rather than all the voices. So basically if you could play a progression using the same top note, it would voice lead very nicely.
Also, if it has an interesting melody like an scale (it can even be whole tone or diminished) it will have a nice voice leading too and will sound great.