Classical guitar prejudices...

derek · #2 10-18-2009, 03:50 PM

I think I told you I studied classical guitar for a time with a guy named Edgar Cruz. EDGAR CRUZ :: GUITARIST EXTRAORDINAIRE

Great guy, great player. What I discovered with that genre is how closed minded it is. I guess it comes from Segovia. Wonderful music, brilliant technique, but it is a well defined box. That community tends to treat outliers like nails that are a bit proud, they hammer them back down.

I know not everyone is like this, and every genre has it's self appointed gate keepers, but classical seems to be more dogmatic than any other. Sounds like the guys on GFA see you as a nail sticking up too much.

Jazzaluk · #3 10-18-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubendiaz

IMO we should go beyond prejudices and music labelling...

Be careful that what you write does not offend anybody or cause problems... The safest approach is to remove all useful information.

I wouldn't waste time on this question. Classical is classical. Jazz is jazz. Each have their own tradition and each have their egocentric divas and academics who enjoy undermining one to prop up the other. It all leads nowhere.

Besides, what value is there in being "pigeon-hole paranoid"? Each genre "is what it is" and should be respected for their own merits. What is the point of tearing at boundaries for the sake of comparison. There are many great players who fall in between disciplines and possibly even lament that they are not properly recognized within either classical or jazz circles. I wonder though... do the real innovators among them care? I don't think they do.

TK_AK · #4 10-18-2009, 05:07 PM

John Williams is my prefered classical guitarist, he should get much more audience !

rubendiaz · #5 10-18-2009, 10:49 PM

I agree with you all,also is true that not everyone is the same,check this great classical composer he is the best of Mexico and is very opened mind,I consult him often to learn Pacos stuff because although he does not play flamenco,he can get by ear exactly as it is any of the most Paco de lucia specific fingerings or small nuances,I think you will like this
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choctawchas · #6 11-10-2009, 04:50 AM

i have been a classical guitarist for the past 13 years,
having studied with a virtuoso for the first three.
but i don't consider myself to be dogmatic or closed minded
about other forms of music or guitar music.

i do find that some players obsession with tone does stem from
the Segovian tradition. this seems to lead to an all consuming passion
for the qualities of sound at the expense of other arguably more important
factors such as playing to a basic beat.

TieDyedDevil · #7 11-13-2009, 04:44 PM

There are people in every genre who wish to uphold tradition, and people who wish to extend the boundaries. It's all good. Simply respect the individuals' preferences and avoid the conflicts.

hot ford coupe · #8 11-28-2009, 09:50 PM

I've seen the prejudice subject from a slightly different angle. I must confess that as a jazz guitarist, I have felt some prejudice against some styles but not because I think jazz guitar is the only valid style but because of the way many people view the guitar in general and some of the comments I get.

Before I open my yap, I want to say that I don't look down on any style of music, guitar style or musical genre. I play what I play because I like it and I don't play what I don't personally identify with. I will never criticize another guitar player for his/her level of skill, musical or gear preference. Now that I've said that, here goes.

Depending on where you're located, walking with a guitar case outside can get you a number of responses which can be quite irritating. I'm originally from NYC but I live near Louisville Kentucky. If I have to go somewhere before I do my usual gig (at the nursing home) I never leave my guitar in the car, I drag it with me. The comments I get range from annoying to downfight frustrating. I hear things like "Hey, I see you're a git-tar picker," or "Play me something from Megadeath" or "Oh, you play one of those things. You know, jing a jing a jing", or even "Are you a lead or rhythm guitarist?". My point is some folks tend to put guitarists into a box on the basis of their own impressions of what a guitar is for. In my area, country music is king and distorted guitar leads are the norm. Not that many folks here even know what jazz is let alone what classical guitar entails or even that it exists. I sometimes get the feeling that people tend to view my personal preferences like "Oh, you play---standards and jazz. Well --- that's nice". It tends to wear on you at times and it tends to bend you towards a bad attitude about other musical styles. I just have to remember to keep that attitude in check so I can keep it real.

JohnW400 · #9 11-28-2009, 10:50 PM

I stopped calling myself a jazz guitarist years ago. Plus I've been working on classical tunes lately.

I just settle on saying a guitar player and then when they start asking questions, I name the types of tunes and say it's a bit of this and a bit of that. Since theres ALWAYS another guitar player around, I leave it up to them to pose.

hot ford coupe · #10 11-29-2009, 08:38 PM

Sounds like a good way of responding.

DMatthewsBand07 · #11 11-30-2009, 07:17 AM

I have to admit that I used to feel the same way about classical guitar but the reality of the situation is that the stereotype just isn't deserved. I'm a classical performance major right now (with a jazz minor of course) and I've heard jazz guys with a bad attitude toward classical way more often then the other way around. I went to a Jason Vieaux (classical guitarist) concert recently and he's one of the nicest guys in the world. He played a full length concert complete with a Pat Metheny cover (improvisation and all) then came out, skipped over all the important donor folks, and talked to all the college kids for fifteen minutes. Great guy, unbelievable player, zero genre prejudice. Maybe it's worse with other instruments but with guitarists the prejudice really isn't bad at all. Probably because guitar was a fringe classical instrument for so long so they know how it feels to be "less than legit." With that said, a problem I have noticed is a little bit of prejudice within the classical community toward guitarists.

randalljazz · #12 11-30-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07

I have to admit that I used to feel the same way about classical guitar but the reality of the situation is that the stereotype just isn't deserved. I'm a classical performance major right now (with a jazz minor of course) and I've heard jazz guys with a bad attitude toward classical way more often then the other way around. I went to a Jason Vieaux (classical guitarist) concert recently and he's one of the nicest guys in the world. He played a full length concert complete with a Pat Metheny cover (improvisation and all) then came out, skipped over all the important donor folks, and talked to all the college kids for fifteen minutes. Great guy, unbelievable player, zero genre prejudice. Maybe it's worse with other instruments but with guitarists the prejudice really isn't bad at all. Probably because guitar was a fringe classical instrument for so long so they know how it feels to be "less than legit." With that said, a problem I have noticed is a little bit of prejudice within the classical community toward guitarists.

only a little bit, huh? things must be getting better...

FatJeff · #13 11-30-2009, 02:33 PM

Jason Vieaux is a hell of a player, isn't he? Caught his show in downtown Denver a couple of years back and immediately purchased his Metheny cover CD. Flawless execution both live in person, and on his CDs.

Sailor · #14 12-10-2009, 07:42 PM

Chiming in late to this....been working on my Masters Degree in Music, (at 50)!

As an undergrad I was a classical guitar/Ed major. Now I'm working on my Maters in Ed and playing classical and new-to-jazz guitar.

In a University setting there is clearly a prejudice towards guitar players. As stated above, the guitar has a very long "serious" history, but most people associate it to pop/rock stuff.

In college it's winds, strings, piano, voice, etc......

It also doesn't help that so many young classical players perform endless amounts of Bach instead of idiomatic guitar pieces. The old professors hate this...play GUITAR music, Ponce, Tarrega, Giuliani, etc....more legit!!

JohnW400 · #15 12-10-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor

.

In a University setting there is clearly a prejudice towards guitar players. As stated above, the guitar has a very long "serious" history, but most people associate it to pop/rock stuff.

In college it's winds, strings, piano, voice, etc......

It also doesn't help that so many young classical players perform endless amounts of Bach instead of idiomatic guitar pieces. The old professors hate this...play GUITAR music, Ponce, Tarrega, Giuliani, etc....more legit!!

It also doesn't help that a lot of so called "serious" guitarists are not also serious musicians in that they learn music and theory as well.

I really don't care how many people disagree with that statement. The fact is if your a guitar player and you can't read, don't know some theory, than you won't be taken seriously by non guitarists. Never mind being taken serious by even classical guitarists.

If your here at this site playing around with tunes for kicks and learning some jazz because it moves you, thats fine. Enjoy it . music should be fun. But if your going to be serious about music and playing with the big boys you better know your shit or be schooled on the band stand (or concert hall) That means being a musician and all the trappings that go with it

So if you're a university bound player reading this and you want to be taken seriously as a musician, head my words. If you're just playing around doing the odd coffee house as a trio or solo, then ignore it. Have fun what doing it and play it for all it's worth. But don't be insulted when you're instrument is not thought of as a serious instrument by non guitarists

hot ford coupe · #16 12-11-2009, 01:25 AM

I'm wondering, John if when you say non-guitarists, you mean musicians that play other instruments. If that's the case, I agree with you whole heartedly. If you can't read and you know no theory, there's no way other musicians can communicate what they need from you in any meaningful way. You're basically lost on the bandstand.

I think one of the biggest problems that can plague the serious guitarist is how easy it is for a lot of players to pick up some simple things on the guitar without training and consider themselves guitar players. It's the same thing with many guitar teachers at local music stores. They can't read and have no idea of how chords are constructed or even used . They teach by "put your fingers here, put your fingers there", show them chord diagrams and then continue the students lessons by teaching them nothing but strumming to popular songs. When the student gets better, they teach them how to play lead guitar lines (without benefit of music notation). It's almost like the less experienced students get to strum rhythm while the more experienced ones play lead and get more attention. Next time you go to a neighborhood music store, check out what type of instruments they sell and the level of quality. I'm sure mostly you'll find tons of wild looking odd named solid bodies with all kinds of crazy paint but maybe one (if any) archtop. Listen to the "tire kickers" who come in to play. Do they play loud distorted superfast licks strung together or do any of them do anything else? I guarantee you usually won't find anyone there playing chord melody to "Danny Boy" or "All the Things You Are" unless one of you guys here are doing the tire kicking or if it's a high end store where you'll get the more knowledgeable players. This is what the general population sees. It's a case of misdirected perception. I could go on more but all I'll wind up doing is babbling and then I'll wet myself.