Classical guitar prejudices...

derek · #2 10-18-2009, 03:50 PM

I think I told you I studied classical guitar for a time with a guy named Edgar Cruz. EDGAR CRUZ :: GUITARIST EXTRAORDINAIRE

Great guy, great player. What I discovered with that genre is how closed minded it is. I guess it comes from Segovia. Wonderful music, brilliant technique, but it is a well defined box. That community tends to treat outliers like nails that are a bit proud, they hammer them back down.

I know not everyone is like this, and every genre has it's self appointed gate keepers, but classical seems to be more dogmatic than any other. Sounds like the guys on GFA see you as a nail sticking up too much.

Jazzaluk · #3 10-18-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubendiaz

IMO we should go beyond prejudices and music labelling...

Be careful that what you write does not offend anybody or cause problems... The safest approach is to remove all useful information.

I wouldn't waste time on this question. Classical is classical. Jazz is jazz. Each have their own tradition and each have their egocentric divas and academics who enjoy undermining one to prop up the other. It all leads nowhere.

Besides, what value is there in being "pigeon-hole paranoid"? Each genre "is what it is" and should be respected for their own merits. What is the point of tearing at boundaries for the sake of comparison. There are many great players who fall in between disciplines and possibly even lament that they are not properly recognized within either classical or jazz circles. I wonder though... do the real innovators among them care? I don't think they do.

TK_AK · #4 10-18-2009, 05:07 PM

John Williams is my prefered classical guitarist, he should get much more audience !

rubendiaz · #5 10-18-2009, 10:49 PM

I agree with you all,also is true that not everyone is the same,check this great classical composer he is the best of Mexico and is very opened mind,I consult him often to learn Pacos stuff because although he does not play flamenco,he can get by ear exactly as it is any of the most Paco de lucia specific fingerings or small nuances,I think you will like this
Julio Cèsar Oliva op MySpace Music ? Gratis gestreamde MP3?s, foto?s en Videoclips

there is only one folcklore song ¨Guadalajara¨ check the rest is his own music.

choctawchas · #6 11-10-2009, 04:50 AM

i have been a classical guitarist for the past 13 years,
having studied with a virtuoso for the first three.
but i don't consider myself to be dogmatic or closed minded
about other forms of music or guitar music.

i do find that some players obsession with tone does stem from
the Segovian tradition. this seems to lead to an all consuming passion
for the qualities of sound at the expense of other arguably more important
factors such as playing to a basic beat.

TieDyedDevil · #7 11-13-2009, 04:44 PM

There are people in every genre who wish to uphold tradition, and people who wish to extend the boundaries. It's all good. Simply respect the individuals' preferences and avoid the conflicts.

hot ford coupe · #8 11-28-2009, 09:50 PM

I've seen the prejudice subject from a slightly different angle. I must confess that as a jazz guitarist, I have felt some prejudice against some styles but not because I think jazz guitar is the only valid style but because of the way many people view the guitar in general and some of the comments I get.

Before I open my yap, I want to say that I don't look down on any style of music, guitar style or musical genre. I play what I play because I like it and I don't play what I don't personally identify with. I will never criticize another guitar player for his/her level of skill, musical or gear preference. Now that I've said that, here goes.

Depending on where you're located, walking with a guitar case outside can get you a number of responses which can be quite irritating. I'm originally from NYC but I live near Louisville Kentucky. If I have to go somewhere before I do my usual gig (at the nursing home) I never leave my guitar in the car, I drag it with me. The comments I get range from annoying to downfight frustrating. I hear things like "Hey, I see you're a git-tar picker," or "Play me something from Megadeath" or "Oh, you play one of those things. You know, jing a jing a jing", or even "Are you a lead or rhythm guitarist?". My point is some folks tend to put guitarists into a box on the basis of their own impressions of what a guitar is for. In my area, country music is king and distorted guitar leads are the norm. Not that many folks here even know what jazz is let alone what classical guitar entails or even that it exists. I sometimes get the feeling that people tend to view my personal preferences like "Oh, you play---standards and jazz. Well --- that's nice". It tends to wear on you at times and it tends to bend you towards a bad attitude about other musical styles. I just have to remember to keep that attitude in check so I can keep it real.

JohnW400 · #9 11-28-2009, 10:50 PM

I stopped calling myself a jazz guitarist years ago. Plus I've been working on classical tunes lately.

I just settle on saying a guitar player and then when they start asking questions, I name the types of tunes and say it's a bit of this and a bit of that. Since theres ALWAYS another guitar player around, I leave it up to them to pose.

hot ford coupe · #10 11-29-2009, 08:38 PM

Sounds like a good way of responding.

DMatthewsBand07 · #11 11-30-2009, 07:17 AM

I have to admit that I used to feel the same way about classical guitar but the reality of the situation is that the stereotype just isn't deserved. I'm a classical performance major right now (with a jazz minor of course) and I've heard jazz guys with a bad attitude toward classical way more often then the other way around. I went to a Jason Vieaux (classical guitarist) concert recently and he's one of the nicest guys in the world. He played a full length concert complete with a Pat Metheny cover (improvisation and all) then came out, skipped over all the important donor folks, and talked to all the college kids for fifteen minutes. Great guy, unbelievable player, zero genre prejudice. Maybe it's worse with other instruments but with guitarists the prejudice really isn't bad at all. Probably because guitar was a fringe classical instrument for so long so they know how it feels to be "less than legit." With that said, a problem I have noticed is a little bit of prejudice within the classical community toward guitarists.

randalljazz · #12 11-30-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07

I have to admit that I used to feel the same way about classical guitar but the reality of the situation is that the stereotype just isn't deserved. I'm a classical performance major right now (with a jazz minor of course) and I've heard jazz guys with a bad attitude toward classical way more often then the other way around. I went to a Jason Vieaux (classical guitarist) concert recently and he's one of the nicest guys in the world. He played a full length concert complete with a Pat Metheny cover (improvisation and all) then came out, skipped over all the important donor folks, and talked to all the college kids for fifteen minutes. Great guy, unbelievable player, zero genre prejudice. Maybe it's worse with other instruments but with guitarists the prejudice really isn't bad at all. Probably because guitar was a fringe classical instrument for so long so they know how it feels to be "less than legit." With that said, a problem I have noticed is a little bit of prejudice within the classical community toward guitarists.

only a little bit, huh? things must be getting better...

FatJeff · #13 11-30-2009, 02:33 PM

Jason Vieaux is a hell of a player, isn't he? Caught his show in downtown Denver a couple of years back and immediately purchased his Metheny cover CD. Flawless execution both live in person, and on his CDs.

Sailor · #14 12-10-2009, 07:42 PM

Chiming in late to this....been working on my Masters Degree in Music, (at 50)!

As an undergrad I was a classical guitar/Ed major. Now I'm working on my Maters in Ed and playing classical and new-to-jazz guitar.

In a University setting there is clearly a prejudice towards guitar players. As stated above, the guitar has a very long "serious" history, but most people associate it to pop/rock stuff.

In college it's winds, strings, piano, voice, etc......

It also doesn't help that so many young classical players perform endless amounts of Bach instead of idiomatic guitar pieces. The old professors hate this...play GUITAR music, Ponce, Tarrega, Giuliani, etc....more legit!!

JohnW400 · #15 12-10-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor

.

In a University setting there is clearly a prejudice towards guitar players. As stated above, the guitar has a very long "serious" history, but most people associate it to pop/rock stuff.

In college it's winds, strings, piano, voice, etc......

It also doesn't help that so many young classical players perform endless amounts of Bach instead of idiomatic guitar pieces. The old professors hate this...play GUITAR music, Ponce, Tarrega, Giuliani, etc....more legit!!

It also doesn't help that a lot of so called "serious" guitarists are not also serious musicians in that they learn music and theory as well.

I really don't care how many people disagree with that statement. The fact is if your a guitar player and you can't read, don't know some theory, than you won't be taken seriously by non guitarists. Never mind being taken serious by even classical guitarists.

If your here at this site playing around with tunes for kicks and learning some jazz because it moves you, thats fine. Enjoy it . music should be fun. But if your going to be serious about music and playing with the big boys you better know your shit or be schooled on the band stand (or concert hall) That means being a musician and all the trappings that go with it

So if you're a university bound player reading this and you want to be taken seriously as a musician, head my words. If you're just playing around doing the odd coffee house as a trio or solo, then ignore it. Have fun what doing it and play it for all it's worth. But don't be insulted when you're instrument is not thought of as a serious instrument by non guitarists

hot ford coupe · #16 12-11-2009, 01:25 AM

I'm wondering, John if when you say non-guitarists, you mean musicians that play other instruments. If that's the case, I agree with you whole heartedly. If you can't read and you know no theory, there's no way other musicians can communicate what they need from you in any meaningful way. You're basically lost on the bandstand.

I think one of the biggest problems that can plague the serious guitarist is how easy it is for a lot of players to pick up some simple things on the guitar without training and consider themselves guitar players. It's the same thing with many guitar teachers at local music stores. They can't read and have no idea of how chords are constructed or even used . They teach by "put your fingers here, put your fingers there", show them chord diagrams and then continue the students lessons by teaching them nothing but strumming to popular songs. When the student gets better, they teach them how to play lead guitar lines (without benefit of music notation). It's almost like the less experienced students get to strum rhythm while the more experienced ones play lead and get more attention. Next time you go to a neighborhood music store, check out what type of instruments they sell and the level of quality. I'm sure mostly you'll find tons of wild looking odd named solid bodies with all kinds of crazy paint but maybe one (if any) archtop. Listen to the "tire kickers" who come in to play. Do they play loud distorted superfast licks strung together or do any of them do anything else? I guarantee you usually won't find anyone there playing chord melody to "Danny Boy" or "All the Things You Are" unless one of you guys here are doing the tire kicking or if it's a high end store where you'll get the more knowledgeable players. This is what the general population sees. It's a case of misdirected perception. I could go on more but all I'll wind up doing is babbling and then I'll wet myself.

CGKnight · #17 12-08-2010, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW400

I really don't care how many people disagree with that statement. The fact is if your a guitar player and you can't read, don't know some theory, than you won't be taken seriously by non guitarists. Never mind being taken serious by even classical guitarists.

If your here at this site playing around with tunes for kicks and learning some jazz because it moves you, thats fine. Enjoy it . music should be fun. But if your going to be serious about music and playing with the big boys you better know your shit or be schooled on the band stand (or concert hall) That means being a musician and all the trappings that go with it

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

I think one of the biggest problems that can plague the serious guitarist is how easy it is for a lot of players to pick up some simple things on the guitar without training and consider themselves guitar players. It's the same thing with many guitar teachers at local music stores. They can't read and have no idea of how chords are constructed or even used . They teach by "put your fingers here, put your fingers there", show them chord diagrams and then continue the students lessons by teaching them nothing but strumming to popular songs. When the student gets better, they teach them how to play lead guitar lines (without benefit of music notation). It's almost like the less experienced students get to strum rhythm while the more experienced ones play lead and get more attention. Next time you go to a neighborhood music store, check out what type of instruments they sell and the level of quality. I'm sure mostly you'll find tons of wild looking odd named solid bodies with all kinds of crazy paint but maybe one (if any) archtop. Listen to the "tire kickers" who come in to play. Do they play loud distorted superfast licks strung together or do any of them do anything else? I guarantee you usually won't find anyone there playing chord melody to "Danny Boy" or "All the Things You Are" unless one of you guys here are doing the tire kicking or if it's a high end store where you'll get the more knowledgeable players. This is what the general population sees. It's a case of misdirected perception. I could go on more but all I'll wind up doing is babbling and then I'll wet myself.

THAT. You guys practically took the thoughts out of my head. I guess the world is pretty similar, no matter what country you are - I swear stuff is the exactly the same here in India, and I thought our place was behind the times in music

JohnW400 · #18 12-08-2010, 10:14 AM

You know, I read ok and I'm able to read and understand all those strange time signatures from Mahavishnu albums. But I saw the Concert For George where Ravi's daughter talks about teaching western musicians how to play in 9 1/2 . Yep, she'd be kicking my ass all over the stage.

cutnstuf · #19 12-08-2010, 10:42 AM

To each his own.

ksjazzguitar · #20 12-08-2010, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

...What I discovered with that genre [classical guitar] is how closed minded it is. I guess it comes from Segovia. Wonderful music, brilliant technique, but it is a well defined box. That community tends to treat outliers like nails that are a bit proud, they hammer them back down.

Well, Segovia certainly was an opinionated SOB. I guess that there are probably some of his students and idolizers that are like that.

But my entrance into the CG world was quite the opposite. I was a jazz player before and most of my instructors were very interested in what I had done. Many of them admired my solo jazz guitar playing (even though it was a different technique) and even came to some of my gigs. A few of them even asked me for copies of some of my arrangements. A surprising number of those guys also play jazz (much more than JGists who play CG, in my experience.)

Yes, there is a conservative "cult" in classical, but there are also amazing players who push the boundries. Listen to Roland Dyens album Night and Day where he rapes a bunch of jazz classics. His "Night in Tunisia" gives me chills:

YouTube - Roland Dyens - A Night in Tunisia

This is not some outlyer but a very respected performer. You put down the GFA as a conservative force, but I actually saw two of these Dyens arrangements performed by one of the winners of their competitions.

True, things may be a little strict in education environments, but they have to deal with a bunch of kids coming into the program that just want to play classical arrangements of "Enter Sandman" and "Stairway."

Don't confuse the conservativeness of pedagogy with a conservativeness in aesthetic. Just like in jazz, where we start people out on "Sumertime" and "Blue Bossa," in classical they start you out on Sor and Tarrega. I young student may think that he is ready to tackle "Giant Steps" at 310, but the teacher knows he's not nailing it yet. In the same way, teachers are going to steer their CG students away from pieces that are beyond their technical or musical levels. But I found that once I got into the grad program for CG, the same people suddenly became very liberal about my music choices. Nothing was off the table as long it was musical and presented a challenge. One guy even did his own rearrangement of Beatle's tunes (although arranged in a complicated and challenging manner.) They even encourage me to do some jazz tunes.

I'm sorry if you got a bad impression of CG. I certainly agree that Segovia was a grumpy old man (and is rolling over in his grave over that Dyens clip) but so what. Yeah, he has a personality cult around his ghost, but they are small in numbers and we tend to ignore them. Sorry you wound up in the middle of one of their circles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

...I think one of the biggest problems that can plague the serious guitarist is how easy it is for a lot of players to pick up some simple things on the guitar without training and consider themselves guitar players.

I call it the "Uncle Bill Phenomenon." Everyone has an Uncle Bill that can play guitar. "Hey, you play guitar? Hey, that can't be too hard. My Uncle Bill plays and he's an alcoholic high-school dropout. His band gigs all the time." I have a hard time convincing people that powerchords and a minor pentatonic is not quite the same as what I do, but music literacy is at an all time low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

It's the same thing with many guitar teachers at local music stores. They can't read and have no idea of how chords are constructed or even used .

Don't get me started. Only on the guitar is that kind of musical illiteracy tolerated. Even preferred. I actually got let go once because I insisted on teaching some basic reading skills - I'm a guitar teacher, not a musical baby-sitter.

Peace,
Kevin

fumblefingers · #21 12-08-2010, 09:08 PM

very interesting take by Dyens.

i like the way this kid plays Dyen's Fuoco. i can't listen to anybody else play it now (including Roland). Sorry 'bout that. Sometimes that's the way it is with instrumentalists vs. composers though. The composers aren't necessarily the top players.

YouTube - 'Virtuosos of Guitar 2008' festival, Moscow. Konstantin Okudzhava

ksjazzguitar · #22 12-08-2010, 09:34 PM

Nice clip. Though, I think that the least the kid could do would be to sweat a little so the rest of us won't feel as bad.

Yeah, I wouldn't say Dyens is my favorite composer. But he is one of my favorite arrangers.

Peace,
Kevin

fumblefingers · #23 12-08-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Nice clip. Though, I think that the least the kid could do would be to sweat a little so the rest of us won't feel as bad.

Yeah, I wouldn't say Dyens is my favorite composer. But he is one of my favorite arrangers.

Peace,
Kevin

no, he didn't sweat, but at least he swooned in ecstasy at his own brilliant playing for the chicks in the 3rd row.

KShri · #24 12-08-2010, 10:55 PM

Hi Guys.

First post here. So I hope I don't step on any toes.

I've seen things from all sides. I started out playing Jimi Hendrix tunes and then went straight off to music school with no real tangible knowledge of music at all. Needless to say, I got my ass handed to me weekly for two, maybe three years straight.

Guitarists... where to start. Jazz guitarists fear classical guitarists and classical guitarists fear jazz guitarists. For the most part, it creates a very mutual respect.

Unfortunately, a lot of guitarists start out like me and add fuel to the fire for this topic because they don't know how to read music. However, guitarists have good ears.

The problem where you get knocked around as a guitarist is in the classical world. Next to singers, you are the lowest of the low. Singers got it the worst though.

The training for young guitarists is for the most part laughable. I do remember getting tabs from my teachers for Pink Floyd songs. It's just so true... once you can play some chords you get to play some solo lines for your favorite tunes. I think this is really a matter of finding the right teacher.

I did a classical performance degree on guitar. I did get a chance to play in a masterclass for Roland Dyens. He is a very interesting and personable man. Very musically sensitive - if your pianissimo is too loud, he'll let you know. If your guitar is a few cents sharp or flat, he'll tune your guitar while you're playing! Trust me, it happened to me!

The classical guitar world is very small circle. I can tell you right now that nobody now who studies modern classical guitar does not follow anything that Segovia does. His RH wrist angle is very high. His LH fingerings are not modern. Segovia loved color changes. He did this through his LH fingerings. Segovia was a gift and a curse - he helped bring classical guitar to the University. Many of his fingerings are idiosyncratic to only him. At that time, there were truly, truly only a handful of players who could play as good as he could. Segovia also had incredible arrogance about him. He change other composers music sometimes simply to suit his musical needs. He deemed Villa-Lobos 12 etudes unplayable (this is documented). Many composers who wrote music for him simply got shelfed -because it was too difficult for him. Segovia was a giant, he really was. He is not anymore.

If any of you are out there thinking you want to audition for music schools as a classical guitarist, feel free to message me. I'd be happy to steer you in the right direction.

Sailor · #25 12-08-2010, 11:19 PM

Yeah...I was taught the same way...a few rock songs with tabs, etc....UGH! Then I went on and got my Music Ed Degree, classical guitar main instrument. Love it but got lazy and carpal tunnel too. Only play classical once a week maybe, now.

But this Jazz!! They seem to know much more about music than classical players...what every chord means, every note, scale, arp, etc... quite a challenge.

Great forum, welcome.

Sailor

ksjazzguitar · #26 12-08-2010, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KShri

...Jazz guitarists fear classical guitarists and classical guitarists fear jazz guitarists. For the most part, it creates a very mutual respect.

Yeah, I've found a lot of respect on both sides. But I've also found ((in my experience) that the classical guys show more genuine interest in jazz than the other way around. Nearly every classical guy I know has either studied jazz, is an active player, or has an interest in studying it. With some exceptions, most of the jazz guys I meet may respect classical, but have no real interest in it - most of them couldn't even name any major repertoire pieces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KShri

Unfortunately, a lot of guitarists start out like me and add fuel to the fire for this topic because they don't know how to read music. ... The problem where you get knocked around as a guitarist is in the classical world. ... The training for young guitarists is for the most part laughable.

I think that this is all related. I think that if guitar was taught the way piano is, then there wouldn't be a problem. But guitar players are mostly self-taught and can't read. There are usually huge holes in their theory and history knowledge. True, there are a lot of really sharp guitarists that can read and know their stuff, but the get smothered out of people perception by the sheer army of amateurs and "less than ideally" trained pros. It really hurts how we're perceived by others. Even in the jazz world to some extent, but may be less so since reading is less of an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KShri

I did get a chance to play in a masterclass for Roland Dyens. He is a very interesting and personable man. Very musically sensitive - if your pianissimo is too loud, he'll let you know. If your guitar is a few cents sharp or flat, he'll tune your guitar while you're playing! Trust me, it happened to me!

Yeah, I witnessed one. He's very touchy-feely, very "intimate" (in a good way.) I remembered we were leaving the clinic and one of my friends (a pretty shy guy) was talking to him about some of his arrangements, and Dyens, was like, "Walk with me." and Dyens grabbed my friend's arm and was walking down the street arm in arm with him, like they were a courting couple. Dyens just kept talking, oblivious to our friend's discomfort. We were all busting up laughing - not because there was anything wrong with it but because our friend was so uncomfortable to be walking arm and arm with another man.

On dynamics, I remember hearing him do "The Marlborough Variations" in the concert that night. In the last variation, the melody (in the bass) were strong and full, while those triplet 16th notes on top were almost inaudible. Very nice effect. Very good control.

Peace,
Kevin

CGKnight · #27 12-08-2010, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor

But this Jazz!! They seem to know much more about music than classical players...what every chord means, every note, scale, arp, etc... quite a challenge.

Yeah, I'm a CGist and that's just what I love about JGists too. Hope to convert soon!

KShri · #28 12-09-2010, 12:11 AM

Quote:

I think that this is all related. I think that if guitar was taught the way piano is, then there wouldn't be a problem. But guitar players are mostly self-taught and can't read. There are usually huge holes in their theory and history knowledge. True, there are a lot of really sharp guitarists that can read and know their stuff, but the get smothered out of people perception by the sheer army of amateurs and "less than ideally" trained pros. It really hurts how we're perceived by others. Even in the jazz world to some extent, but may be less so since reading is less of an issue.

Oh I couldn't agree more. All the pianists and string players come from conservatory backgrounds. They studied theory and developed their ear
long before I started doing anything.

I find approaching jazz from a classical standpoint a lovely advantage. I find it beautiful to see the evolution of harmonic language unfold before me. So much of jazz comes from classical harmonic language. You can find V9 and Vb9 in the 19th century harmonic language. Lizst, Chopin and Schumann used them quite frequently.

You can see Coltrane's Giant Steps modulation through thirds as a direct link through Wagner's revolutionary harmonic modulation. The Tristan chord - your minor 7th flat fifth as known in the jazz world. It's all there man. Bach even employed minor 7ths in his harmonic language. You can hear one in Violin sonata no. 1 in G minor. It's all there.

jack_gvr · #29 12-09-2010, 10:40 PM

"You can see Coltrane's Giant Steps modulation through thirds as a direct link through Wagner's revolutionary harmonic modulation. The Tristan chord - your minor 7th flat fifth as known in the jazz world. It's all there man. Bach even employed minor 7ths in his harmonic language. You can hear one in Violin sonata no. 1 in G minor. It's all there."

There are a number of passages in the Chaconne that I like to play really slowly, saying, "what the hell was he thinking when he wrote this??!!"
Bach took that descending bass line and stretched the harmonies so many different ways... there is no end of magic in studying Bach. It's not only the harmonies, but you have to get into the keyboard stuff to appreciate the incredible canonic and fugal structures, which are not really very accessible to guitar players.

hot ford coupe · #30 12-10-2010, 02:37 AM

I'm glad this thread got resurrected. I'm also glad to see like minded individuals too. I'm not classically trained but I learned my craft from a great jazz bass teacher and I then applied it to the guitar as well. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned what I thought some problems are with the guitar but I just thought of another one and this leads directly to the lousy training producing "less than ideal" players. The reason there are so many guitar players now is that the guitar is probably the coolest instrument out there besides the drums. A lot of guys (myself included) started on the guitar because it was a way to be popular with your peers and get girls. In order to do that successfully, a guitar player needs to learn fast and get right to the meat of playing. Forget about the music, just show me where to put my mits. They don't want to spend the time really getting to know music, they want to be guitar gods right away so they can form bands and get girls. Forget about tone and good clean technique. That's what distortion boxes are for. Try to get girls by learning how to play the trombone, accordion or tuba. Take it from me, it just ain't gonna happen. I got first hand experience in that department.

BTW, if I hear one more person call my chosen instrument a gee-tar, I'm gonna soil myself.