Classical guitar prejudices...

[Sailor]

"John Williams plays it in D."

Pretty good endorsement!!

(I've seen Prelude no 1 in C (Bach), played in D also)!

Sailor

[KShri]

The last time Williams recorded that was 1982.

Considering his vast output of Bach recordings and re-recordings, I doubt that he was fond of the transcription himself.

[NSJ]

There's a guy my teacher is really really excited about, someone who he says is radically changing the way classical guitar should be played--the Scottsman Paul Galbraith.

I didn't know anything about him, so I instinctively asked "any relation to Barry Galbraith?"

uh, no!

I'm certainly no expect at this, but a bunch of us went to go see Paul play in Chicago at a small church in Wicker Park for a very small crowd, about 30% were my teacher's students. His tone is amazing, and Paul attributes it to the fact that he plays an 8 string guitar (low note A, or octave below 5th string, like a 7th string, and the high string is a P4 above the 2nd string, so no need to switch positions), and holds it radically differently, with no waste of movement--the instrument is held like a cello, with an end pin, which connects it tactically to a "sound box" below.

Paul said after the concert that you, as a listener, would notice very much if the sound box was not there, as it contributes heavily to the tone (or, more precisely, the quality of the overtones) of the instrument.

My teacher said that he's not sure that jazz guitar can be played like this, given the different requirements for the music, but he feels that Paul's method--holding it like a cello, with 8 strings, with radically different ergonomic movement-- is the way classical guitar should be taught and played.

[JohnW400]

@NSJ

I have his CD doing the Bach Violin Sonatas. Very interesting concept about the eight string guitar and how he holds it.I didn't know about the sound box part.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by NSJ

..My teacher said that he's not sure that jazz guitar can be played like this [vertically, like a cello], given the different requirements for the music, but he feels that Paul's [Galbraith] method--holding it like a cello, with 8 strings, with radically different ergonomic movement-- is the way classical guitar should be taught and played.

Well, some players do. John Stowell plays the guitar much more vertically than most - maybe at 70 degrees.

Peace,
Kevin

[wordsmith]

Hi NSJ....

Paul Galbraith is a Scot. One could also say he's Scottish.

Not really important until you find yourself in the wrong bar in Glasgow after Celtic have lost 0-7 to Rangers .

Some people like a Scotch in the evenings, maybe with dry ginger or simply 'on the rocks'.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Well, some players do. John Stowell plays the guitar much more vertically than most - maybe at 70 degrees.

Peace,
Kevin

yep. why do we think he does it/what do we think the advantages are - for him? if you care to opine.

[wordsmith]

Sorry.....a bit is missing from my "aside" about how to refer to a person from Scotland.

"Scotsman" is used for the name of a both a newspaper and a famous train.....The Flying Scotsman.

The term 'Scotsman' doesn't work well when referring to women, so it's better to go with "Scot". Then you can enjoy yourself in any bar in Glasgow, regardless of the football results .


End of "aside".

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

yep. why do we think he [John Stowell] does it [holds the jazz guitar nearly vertical] what do we think the advantages are - for him? if you care to opine.

I know that I talked briefly to him about this at a jam session where we were both playing, like 20 years ago. I can't remember exactly what he said, and I'm not sure what holes I might be filling in with my imagination, however ...

It certainly gets your left wrist into a nice position. There is no longer the fight to get the thumb in the right position AND keep the wrist straight. If you try it you'll see that everything falls beautifully into place.

As to the right hand, it's not much of a change of position, just a change in the angle of shoulder.

And to watch Stowell play, you will see an inspiringly smooth, light, and graceful technique. I find it hard to to with a deep hollowbody, otherwise I might go that route myself.

Peace,
Kevin

[smdantas]

I am a classical guitar player, learnt it at a very good University here, and played classical for several years, and now I am working on becoming a rock/blues/jazz guitarist, which I always wanted to be.

I read this topic and I must say I keep my previous opinion:

Many (even good) classical guitarists underestimate jazz music (and also rock and blues, frequently), and many jazz musicians seem to think classical guitarists are not as versatile... In a sum: stereotypes and prejudices SUCK.

[the_emptier]

Agreed. I went from playing metal/rock music and now I play jazz/classical and am particularly obsessed with classical and opera music now.

[smdantas]

All in all, all that matters is being happy with the way you play your guitar, acoustic or electric, and the music you make. If it pleases you (and the people you play to), then it's all right. One must notice that there is a public for every style.

I

[Pullush]

[quote=KShri;115725]Bach cello suite no. 1 in G major?

It drives me crazy if I hear that prelude played in D on the guitar.
quote]


I just re-learned the piece in G - played it in D before - and its much closer to the original cello sound in C. For me the D version is not what Bach wanted here - the deep bass notes played on the Cello.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by smdantas

I am a classical guitar player, learnt it at a very good University here, and played classical for several years, and now I am working on becoming a rock/blues/jazz guitarist, which I always wanted to be.

I read this topic and I must say I keep my previous opinion:

Many (even good) classical guitarists underestimate jazz music (and also rock and blues, frequently), and many jazz musicians seem to think classical guitarists are not as versatile... In a sum: stereotypes and prejudices SUCK.

stereotypes are typically based at least partially on the truth.

if a classical player can artistically render master level music from the renaissance through Brouwer and other modern masters, then he or she is more versatile than most rockers can even comprehend. who gives a shit what they think? they can go fire up another joint.

underestimate jazz music? well, the truth is, its very simple. it uses simple and not very diverse compositional material - i.e. its all song form! it doesnt get any simpler than that. but whats not so simple is the ability to competently improvise over fast moving changes with frequent key center changes, and often at higher tempos. and to do it with mastery is even more special. thats a type of compositional skill, and must be done extemporaneously. most classical instrumentalists don't compose, or at least not successfully/meaningfully, and most cannot improvise with any noteworthy skill. a lot of classical players are jazz fans. in particular, they admire the top jazz instrumentalists. they long for the freedom of expression, same as everybody else.

[RememberClifford1]

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

Classical is classical. Jazz is jazz. ... I wonder though... do the real innovators among them care? I don't think they do.

I don't really totally agree with the first part of the statement. I get lessons in both at my college and both my teachers tell me "music is music and guitar is guitar." A lot of people would really be surprised at how much overlap there is. The second part of that statement (and I guess the overall conclusion of your argument) is on the money. Jason Vieaux is one of the best and most widely respected classical guitarists of all time and said that one of his favorite projects was an album of Pat Metheny tunes he arranged in the classical style (ie the Bat played with tremolo ala Recuerdos dela Alhambra). I saw him perform them live and he improvised a couple choruses in the middle and it was like he was improvising a complete composition with the bass and inner voices. Unbelievable. Classical guitarists are also famous for lifting Albeniz and Granados compositions that really blur the line between classical, folk, and jazz music. Andrew York was a Jazz Guitar major before he gave it up to focus on classical. Hell.. he was a flute major before that. Lots of younger players (especially in Europe) play jazz tunes or arrange folk tunes in very jazzy ways (ala Gershwin). Lots of the big guns like Manuel Barrueco are forever on a mission to blend styles and expand the repertoire. Don't forget jazz cats like Gene Bertoncini who will perform classical pieces (even as intros to jazz standards) in their live performances. There are certainly "establishment" guys who have their noses in the air but you'd really be surprised how many big names out there are looking to really accept everything that they can and how few of them really give a damn what genre they get plopped into.

[Astronomer]

I think it has to do with not being exposed to other types of music. Genre names are meant to clarify what people are talking about when referring to a characteristic type of music. Unfortunately, some people forget that music defines the genre, genre doesn't define music. Genres wouldn't exist if it weren't for dichotomies in already existing music styles and practices. With that being said, I think it's counter-productive to strictly say the classical is classical and jazz and jazz. At the end of the day they are both styles of music that evolve and progress with time. You can apply what you learn in jazz to classical and vice versa, and there is much to be learned from both styles. I hope to learn classical guitar when I go to college and start providing for myself, but at the same time, I will continue to learn from jazz, blues, rock, metal, folk, rap, electronic music, etc. because they are just another form of music.

[stevedenver]

late to this
i went to berklee briefly , then to a regular liberal art college
i built lutes and used to play renaissance music-so i played some beginner type classical, reading
but played rock and folk an blues -because they are so fun-
guitar has become everymans insturment-there is industry built upon the popularity of the instrument-

we all drive cars-few of us have had racing instruction-yet we function nevertheless

ive never called myself a jazz player-because to me its the pinnacle for the guitar -of soul, thought, skill, education and emotion

having read the thread
i just dont take guitar as seriously anymore-perhaps be3cause in a way ive surrendered -to what suits me and my ability and talent and lifestyle

i play every day, mando and guitar, i study

but i work 50+ hours a week as a lawyer, more as dad, gardener, handyman, and husband etc etc

i dont chose to gig due to time and hassle
i play occasionally with friends -guitar and mando-a lot of styles-
passable-not even notable skills-even perform once in a great while

but

my point is that i play, and have, since law school-for my enjoyment-before that time i was passionate and deeply dedicated and music and guitar was all i wanted to do

i wont be a pro
i try to improve and continue to learn
but in the long run
i play for enjoymnet-singing along, playing along-using another part of my brain that lawyers dont exercise quite as much once theyve been to law school (and wihtout any disrespect to any one-i see the classical discipline as being similar to law school-its a molding of how you think )

my point is its ok to play simply for the joy of it-im not saying ignorace is bliss or the like
but like athletes
very few become professionals
yet we can still enjoy what we do on a variety of levels

i don thtink theres anything wrong with teaching by mechanics-ie the teacher examples above-here how you play an "E" chord etc-its a taste, its accesible, its quickly acehivable-and it may be insprirational
and...i love playing pink floyd using accuate tab-...jus tbecause its fun for me

i hope you all will still respect me in the morning........

[chrisg]

Recently I was talking to a mate of mine who is a very good Classical guitarist. I mentioned to him that I would love to be able to do what he does and play some classical but do not have the discipline to sit down and learn repertoir and others arrangements, his response to this was he would love to play jazz yes does not have the discipline to learn how to play over changes.
I think their is definitely a level of mutual respect between MOST classical and jazz players however their are close minded people on both sides of the spectrum.

On a different note I just read the first page of this thread and there was some talk about a general lack of respect towards guitarists due to a lack of music knowledge due mainly to ignorant teachers. When I started teaching at the music school I am currently at about 3 years ago I took over from a previous teacher who I found had actually told students they should not learn theory or how to read because it takes away from your musicality....... needless to say most of those students left when I started teaching and told them more or less that their old teacher was an idiot and had taught them nothing of worth in the whole time they had been paying for lessons. Luckily now I have a number of new students willing to learn about music, not just Hendrix licks.
My point is, with people like this TEACHING how can you blame anyone for looking down on guitarists.

[harmoniacordis]

The Harmonia Cordis Association launched a brand new classical guitar video portal. You can find a lot of videos with Gabriel Bianco, Judicael Perroy, Csáki András, Duo Joncol, Trio Beke Bugnar Biro, Cserenyec Dora. More videos coming soon.



Gabriel Bianco - Prelude 3 (Villa-Lobos) @ Harmonia Cordis Association - Video Portal

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by chrisg

Recently I was talking to a mate of mine who is a very good Classical guitarist. I mentioned to him that I would love to be able to do what he does and play some classical but do not have the discipline to sit down and learn repertoir and others arrangements, his response to this was he would love to play jazz yes does not have the discipline to learn how to play over changes.
I think their is definitely a level of mutual respect between MOST classical and jazz players however their are close minded people on both sides of the spectrum.

My first or second gig back playing guitar, a guy came up to me and talked about guitar. He was obviously telling the truth about being conservatory trained and had the nails to prove it! He treated me with great respect and said he'd love to be able to improvise with chords and all and loved what I did.
1. I had to sound a little rusty to a really good guitar player.
2. It was nice to talk shop with another guitar player, and not with the ego gun-slinging attitude so many guitar players have.

[JimBobWay]

Originally Posted by smdantas

...In a sum: stereotypes and prejudices SUCK.

Well there's as good a reason to frequent this site as any. Well said!

On the other hand, I must admit John Williams quite literally changed my life. After years of learn-by-listening from the guitar 'Gods' of my youth, I found his "Virtuoso" album and decided to buy a classical guitar. Aside from John McLaughlin and a few others, I am most grateful to JW for his passion, intensity, tone, and grace. He really fooled me - I thought it would be easy to play like him!

It's all good - I am in Asheville, NC right now. Just walking 6 blocks, I heard 6 different guitar players and they are all playing with all their heart. If we all do likewise every day, won't it be a better world? Thanks y'all!

[fingerstyler]

Well Bream was a big fan of Django (he named his dog after him).

You can see him improvising on Youtube
Julian Bream playing Villalobos and Jazz - YouTube

He is also an excellent lutenist, baroque guitarist and did OK on classical as well.

[fingerstyler]

Originally Posted by stevedenver

late to this
i went to berklee briefly , then to a regular liberal art college
i built lutes and used to play renaissance music-so i played some beginner type classical, reading
but played rock and folk an blues -because they are so fun-
guitar has become everymans insturment-there is industry built upon the popularity of the instrument-

we all drive cars-few of us have had racing instruction-yet we function nevertheless

ive never called myself a jazz player-because to me its the pinnacle for the guitar -of soul, thought, skill, education and emotion

having read the thread
i just dont take guitar as seriously anymore-perhaps be3cause in a way ive surrendered -to what suits me and my ability and talent and lifestyle

i play every day, mando and guitar, i study

but i work 50+ hours a week as a lawyer, more as dad, gardener, handyman, and husband etc etc

i dont chose to gig due to time and hassle
i play occasionally with friends -guitar and mando-a lot of styles-
passable-not even notable skills-even perform once in a great while

but

my point is that i play, and have, since law school-for my enjoyment-before that time i was passionate and deeply dedicated and music and guitar was all i wanted to do

i wont be a pro
i try to improve and continue to learn
but in the long run
i play for enjoymnet-singing along, playing along-using another part of my brain that lawyers dont exercise quite as much once theyve been to law school (and wihtout any disrespect to any one-i see the classical discipline as being similar to law school-its a molding of how you think )

my point is its ok to play simply for the joy of it-im not saying ignorace is bliss or the like
but like athletes
very few become professionals
yet we can still enjoy what we do on a variety of levels

i don thtink theres anything wrong with teaching by mechanics-ie the teacher examples above-here how you play an "E" chord etc-its a taste, its accesible, its quickly acehivable-and it may be insprirational
and...i love playing pink floyd using accuate tab-...jus tbecause its fun for me

i hope you all will still respect me in the morning........

Steve, I think there is nothing wrong with this at all. Music is a participatory art. The more people that learn an instrument the better. If there are people playing 2 chords songs and are happy we are all the better for it. If a teacher is teaching tabs and his/her students are happy then all the better - the students that want more will find it. The ones who don't might continue longer. I think the analogy with sports is a good one. Just because I don't play hockey like Gretzky or any NHLer for that matter doesn't mean I can't enjoy going skating with my kids on the weekend or playing the occasional pickup game. No one should feel ashamed about it.

Music and Art are not a competition!

[Rusty Tele]

I've studied classically for quite a number of years and as with other fields of it's best to view classical guitar as a discipline. I don't believe there's an actual intended elistist attitude amongst this genre, I see it as a dedication to learn an art. Each mode of music has it's proponents and detractors many classically trained musicians who did not become professional performers in this field became crossover musician's to a different genre, but they still devoted a certain amount of time devoted to classical music "stevedenver" made this point. As with everything in this world you will surely have your snobs and elitists, but I haven't found that to be all that true in my travels.