Segovia Scales

[ronjazz]

I'm with you, Jason. In fact, learning Mick Goodrick's "Unitar" concept (each string is a one-string guitar) is an excellent way to really start learning the fingerboard in an organic, useful way. Scales are NEVER useless, even in jazz guitar playing, because, when done right, they produce several important results, from learning the fingerboard to tone production to left-right coordination to plectrum technique or RH finger technique, etc. Nearly everything one needs to accomplish on the instrument can be accomplished with conscious, creative scale practice.

[Gitarguy]

Originally Posted by mattymel

...being that this is a jazz forum i would also add that i find they are for the most part almost completely useless in jazz guitar playing...

Wow...

Would you please explain just exactly how technique, facility, and skill are "for the most part almost completely useless in jazz guitar playing..." I would really like to know.

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The Segovia Scales are about far more than just fingering or going through the motions of doing an exercise. They are about facility; with the right hand perhaps even more with the left. A classical guitarist needs to have every picking pattern available on autopilot, and the Segovia Scales are how one acquires that autopilot for the right hand.

This also translates perfectly to other fingerpicking styles, whether it be conventional simple arpeggios, hybrid picking, or even Travis picking. The point is to build fundamental skills that are universally applicable, and the Scales are a vital part of that journey.

A previous poster mentioned tone production, and that control has to be learnrd and internalized. This is where Segovia is so valuable. Also, once the various pingerings right hand patterns are mastered, then advanced techniques like tremolo simply fall into place. A smooth, even tremolo is a beautiful thing, and they don't get handed out like Halloween candy, they have to be earned.

Formal study of the classical guitar provides the musician with a strong, broad foundation of knowledge, skills, and techniques upon which to build his musicianship: regardless of the genre he chooses to pursue later on. Unfortunately, this foundation is the step most people choose to omit. Then they wonder why their abilities plateau and do not progress. Why indeed?

[mattymel]

yes, i was the actual "previous poster". show me a jazz solo using segovia fingerings...obviously technique is pretty universal. but im confidant in saying they arent useful in jazz playing because i played the segovia scales for years. for the most part they are not conducive to playing with traditional jazz phrasing.

[brad4d8]

Originally Posted by mattymel

yes, i was the actual "previous poster". show me a jazz solo using segovia fingerings...obviously technique is pretty universal. but im confidant in saying they arent useful in jazz playing because i played the segovia scales for years. for the most part they are not conducive to playing with traditional jazz phrasing.

There's at least one classical guitarist, possibly Eduardo Fernandez, who advocates no scale exercises but rather find passages from the repertoire to use instead. He maintains that you never encounter scale passages in the repertoire, so they are not useful as practice exercises. Although I practiced them diligently during my classical period, I much prefer other scale patterns in general, Johnny Smith's for example.
Brad

[mattymel]

Agreed. I've always kept my jazz and classical guitar worlds separate. In not a fan of nylon strings for jazz, even when done with the hands of a master. I've also found that the thinking behind practicing scales for jazzers and classys couldn't be more different. When I was studying classical I asked my teacher about specific fingerings for scales in various intervals and he stared at me strangely and asked me why I would want to practice that? I just find the thinking between the two worlds couldn't be more different. And that's fine by me. It definitely affected my technique, but little else.

[fumblefingers]

i think that the 2-octave scales - or should i say the 2-position 2-octave Segovia scales - are good practice. however, they should be considered as only one of many technical capabilities to master.

the 3-octave scales may not be as useful in a direct sense perhaps, but they do help the guitarist learn to shift cleanly, and learn to negotiate the full range of the instrument in a very fluid fashion. that seems invaluable to me even if the benefits to a jazz soloist are somewhat indirect.

Berklee teaches 3-octave scales with so-called "mirror fingerings". i think that they have a similar benefit as the Segovia 3-octave scales. one advantage is that Berklee has them mapped out for most of the familiar scales/modes practiced by jazzers.

[Gillman Royce]

Maybe this will help. In all my years of study with Segovia proteges (3), the scales we used were/are known as Diatonic Scales. Whenever I asked why things had to be done exactly this or that way, with no room for creative variation, the answer was always the same " Because that's the way Segovia does it."

[ronjazz]

Clearly "because that's the way Segovia does it" is a rather stupid answer, and in all my years of studying with Segovia proteges, I never heard such a lazy reason given. Scales are scales, and different fingerings and approaches must be investigated, especially for jazz players. The Segovia scales bring a certain organization to the practice of scales, but nobody I've encountered, including John Williams and Oscar Ghiglia, both of whom I studied with, claimed that they were the only scales to practice.

[craigh]

I have used the scales off and on for almost 16 years. They really help your coordination between your right and left hands. Make sure to use the recommended right hand fingerings.

[furtom]

Just found this thread!

mattymel is spot on in everything he is saying. I'm a classical guitarist who is "branching out," and even though I'm no jazz expert or indeed any kind of real jazzer, I can tell you Segovia scales have zero application for jazz guitar.

Classical guitar scales are all about the quality of each individual scale. i.e. finding the very best fingerings for tone. It's all about classical technique.

Most of them are not really transposable and those that are resemble the scales you already know.

Two different approaches to scales for two different objectives.