Losing the plectrum

[Bill Coleman]

I did a small amount of classical guitar a long long time ago and never really took it too far (grade 6 or something), but recently I'm been listening to a lot of Lenny Breau and trying to get into a more pianistic style of jazz playing. The basic classical training is really paying off here for syncopated comping with melody, but I'm at a bit of brick wall with single note playing.

I can't seem to get a fluid 16th or even reasonably paced 8th note roll going with my right hand digits! Using I-M alternating finger strokes things fall apart quite quickly at any kind of pace - and forget getting a nice relaxed swing rhythm! I would love to ditch the pick entirely, but it's not looking like an option unless I can get to the same standard of single note playing with fingers.

Does anyone here have any recommendations of exercises or technique pointers for this? I'm using a steel string for now, but I guess good nylon technique would translate over...

[IbanezAS100]

I'm not a fingerstylist so I don't have any tips, but I'd look at the greats for ideas...Mick Goodrick, Martin Taylor etc...you can tweak your RH technique to suit the style and I'm sure you can swing very hard..it can be done with standard i-m as well if you persevere...

Here's a little inspiration from an underrated player...Nelson Veras

‪nelson veras summer 2000‬‏ - YouTube

Best of luck

[reventlov]

Try using p and i for single note runs rather than i and m

I use that technique a lot - think of p as replacing the pick down stroke, and i as replacing the up stroke. That's not an uncommon technique, in fact that's exactly what Lenny Breau did. It's much easier to swing with that approach than with i and m.

[brad4d8]

Originally Posted by reventlov

Try using p and i for single note runs rather than i and m

I agree. Even though I play a lot of classical guitar and use i-m and i-m-a there, for some reason when I do jazzy stuff I tend to use p-i and p-m.
Brad

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by brad4d8

I agree. Even though I play a lot of classical guitar and use i-m and i-m-a there, for some reason when I do jazzy stuff I tend to use p-i and p-m.

I find that p - m works better for smooth and fast single-note playing. Check out "Pumping Nylon" if you don't already have it. Ken Hatfield's "Jazz For Classical Guitar" is recommended too. Have you tried playing ragtime? Some of the Joplin tunes are great for finger independence. Best of both worlds: great tunes that serve as great etudes. And loads of fun to play

[Bill Coleman]

I've always seen flamenco, gypsy and classical guys rip it up on single notes with just M & I, so i figured I just needed to learn and practice this technique properly from basics ...I never really considered using the P at all on the same string as M, I or A for single note runs. From classical I was always taught that this was just plain wrong! So I'll try throwing P into the mix like you guys said and see where that leads me.

Some interesting reference listening you mentioned also - I'll hit those up too.

As for rags and independent bass vs melody, that's never really been my problem. I've come to jazz from a perverse background of old school blues (piedmont, rags, delta etc), chicago blues and classical so syncopated and independent rhythm vs melody isn't an issue (well... it's not always easy, but I can usually get my RH fingers around it with practice). The problem is I have always needed a pick for in-the-pocket single note work... and I REALLY want to lose that pick!

[Bill Coleman]

I just followed that Nelson Veras link... how have I never heard of him before?!? That is some seriously good music played with exceptional technique. me like!

[ronjazz]

The p-i or p-m technique is ancient, from the 16th-Century lute players. It is easier to swing with that technique, as one gets an accented downbeat with the larger and heavier thumb. As a classically-trained player, I must strongly recommend that you forget classical training for playing jazz. Jazz is about bending the rules and finding your own sound. Nelson Veras, like Lennie Breau, has done exactly that: broken the rules to create his own sound. He did a CD a couple of years ago with the phenomenal bassist Dominique Di Piazza, well worth searching out. One thing that Veras does more than most fingerstyle players is use a lot of slurs, both ascending and descending, which works for him on the Godin guitar he plays, with low action and a crossover fingerboard.

[Bill Coleman]

thanks everyone, p-m / p-i is actually looking like it will work out for me! it's going to take a LOT of work, but it looks do-able. thank you all so much for your contributions...

btw, i've checked out that pumping nylon book and is is scary how much really terrible technique i had that was never corrected by my so called teacher all those years ago. CTS & RSI scary! sometimes a bad teacher is worse than no teacher :-/

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Bill Coleman

p-m / p-i is actually looking like it will work out for me! it's going to take a LOT of work, but it looks do-able.

Very doable. Bill, don't forget to check out Martin Taylor, the standard bearer for fingerstyle jazz guitar. He's self taught. Strict classical training is extremely valuable, but, like the previous post said, doesn't have to restricting. You've gotta find what works best for you.